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  1. #1

    Default New luxury green car

    Fisker Automotive Inc. of Irvine unveiled a high-performance plug-in hybrid — the Karma — that it plans to sell for $80,000 beginning in late 2009.

    Quantum Technologies of Irvine developed the car’s power system. Its main power source is a lithium battery pack that drives an electric motor. The battery can be charged by either a small onboard gasoline engine or by being plugged in. When fully charged, the Karma can drive up to 50 miles without using a drop of gasoline.

    http://ocbiz.freedomblogging.com/200...ed-in-detroit/


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    Honda already has a true feul cell car on the road in CA whose only byproduct is water. It runs on hydrogen.

    Electric cars still must be recharged and guess how the electricity they charge up with is created--mostly from technoligies that pollute the planet, coal and oil. Nuclear has its own set of problems, gas is at its full utilization point, and we can't run the planet on water, wind and solar power as yet.
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    Honda Introduces Detroit to Next-Generation Green Cars
    The Honda CR-Z, a lightweight sports hybrid concept vehicle, and the FCX Clarity, a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, bring some of the most advanced environmental technologies from Honda to the 2008 North American International Auto Show.

    http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/

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    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  4. #4

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    hydrogen generation as of 2007 is worse that burning straight gasoline or burning natural gas in your car.

    We arent exactly Keanu Reeves and Morgan Freeman splitting h2O atoms into hydrogen and oxygen, its coming from refined crude oil stock and natural gas currently. When you brake it down, the extra electricity and distribution by truck it takes to move Hydrogen has no benefit over gasoline or natural gas.

    If we get hydrogen from water and the electricity is not burned from fossil/nuclear, then we have a true clean abundant fuel.

    Also, Hydrogen's storage capacity on a car is probably 1/2 that of what a gas powered car can get per liter/gallon whatever. So if you have a chevy impala for example that gets 500 miles per "tank size of fuel" being gasoline, you may get 200-250 miles in the same space of hydrogen. And hydrogen is not able to be stored on a consumer vehicle below 20-30 degrees F is what i heard last.....so its -5 F today in MN....im screwed.

    Clean electricity (cars plugged in to a solar grid etc.) is probably our best shot, but whatever we do to reduce oil consumption, 1 solution will not be a fix to 100% of the problem, so im not a 100% downer on hydrogen....people in the south may one day actually make it viable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by toastblows View Post
    hydrogen generation as of 2007 is worse that burning straight gasoline or burning natural gas in your car.

    We arent exactly Keanu Reeves and Morgan Freeman splitting h2O atoms into hydrogen and oxygen, its coming from refined crude oil stock and natural gas currently. When you brake it down, the extra electricity and distribution by truck it takes to move Hydrogen has no benefit over gasoline or natural gas.

    If we get hydrogen from water and the electricity is not burned from fossil/nuclear, then we have a true clean abundant fuel.

    Also, Hydrogen's storage capacity on a car is probably 1/2 that of what a gas powered car can get per liter/gallon whatever. So if you have a chevy impala for example that gets 500 miles per "tank size of fuel" being gasoline, you may get 200-250 miles in the same space of hydrogen. And hydrogen is not able to be stored on a consumer vehicle below 20-30 degrees F is what i heard last.....so its -5 F today in MN....im screwed.

    Clean electricity (cars plugged in to a solar grid etc.) is probably our best shot, but whatever we do to reduce oil consumption, 1 solution will not be a fix to 100% of the problem, so im not a 100% downer on hydrogen....people in the south may one day actually make it viable!
    I don't know all the details of hydrogen, but they are already leasing them in California ($500 a month), so they must have worked out most of the bugs you mentioned. As far as how much you can store, Honda says: "Hydrogen ...can be twice as expensive as gasoline for the same energy content. However, the car will go almost three times as far on the same amount, making the cost per mile much lower." So if you're right and a car can only store half as much, it can still go 50% further than the gas powered car with the same storage capacity. The Honda "[t]ank holds 171 liters of hydrogen gas. Honda says that's the energy equivalent of four gallons of gasoline, yielding a driving range of 270 miles at the expected mpg rating." The equivalent gasoline rating is 68 mpg for the fuel cell car.

    Hydrogen comes 95% for natural gas, according to Honda. I don't know the process, but this is probably the cleanest burning fossil fuel.

    In addition, "Honda also unveiled its current model of the Home Energy Station (HES), a home cogeneration and fueling system that uses natural gas to supply electricity and heat in addition to hydrogen fuel for vehicles.

    The system is equipped with fuel cells that generate electricity (5 kW) for the home, and is configured to recover the heat produced during power generation for domestic water heating. The HES can produce 3 Nm3/hr of hydrogen. In addition to reducing carbon dioxide emissions by some 40%, according to Honda’s calculations, the HES system is expected to lower by 50% the total running cost of household electricity, gas and vehicle fuel."

    You mentioned freezing weather. Honda has a system that ..."improves system performance in sub-zero temperatures, achieving a new level of system reliability. The problem of cold-weather startup had been a key obstacle to the commercialization of fuel cell vehicles. In 2003, Honda solved the problem with the introduction of the Honda FC Stack, the world’s first fuel cell that can be used at temperatures as low as –20° C. The V Flow fuel cell stack, on the other hand, now delivers ultra-low-temperature start-up performance on par with that of a gasoline engine.

    The article I read said that the reason they aren't gonig immediately nationwide is because they need to set up a network of hydrgen fueling stations first.

    Electric cars tend to be expensive as well as very short on mileage per charge; they've never really built a battey large enough to give the electric car much mileage per charge. I like them as a commuter car. The solar grid idea may be workable in a sunny area, I don't know, but I do know that solar technology is expensive, because I've been inquiring about it to build a home in Nevada.


    http://www.fuelcells.org/basics/bene...FQqfHgodJ2hPsQ

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...rive-fcx_N.htm

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005..._more_pow.html
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    I don't know all the details of hydrogen, but they are already leasing them in California ($500 a month), so they must have worked out most of the bugs you mentioned. As far as how much you can store, Honda says: "Hydrogen ...can be twice as expensive as gasoline for the same energy content. However, the car will go almost three times as far on the same amount, making the cost per mile much lower." So if you're right and a car can only store half as much, it can still go 50% further than the gas powered car with the same storage capacity. The Honda "[t]ank holds 171 liters of hydrogen gas. Honda says that's the energy equivalent of four gallons of gasoline, yielding a driving range of 270 miles at the expected mpg rating." The equivalent gasoline rating is 68 mpg for the fuel cell car.

    Hydrogen comes 95% for natural gas, according to Honda. I don't know the process, but this is probably the cleanest burning fossil fuel.

    In addition, "Honda also unveiled its current model of the Home Energy Station (HES), a home cogeneration and fueling system that uses natural gas to supply electricity and heat in addition to hydrogen fuel for vehicles.

    The system is equipped with fuel cells that generate electricity (5 kW) for the home, and is configured to recover the heat produced during power generation for domestic water heating. The HES can produce 3 Nm3/hr of hydrogen. In addition to reducing carbon dioxide emissions by some 40%, according to Honda’s calculations, the HES system is expected to lower by 50% the total running cost of household electricity, gas and vehicle fuel."

    You mentioned freezing weather. Honda has a system that ..."improves system performance in sub-zero temperatures, achieving a new level of system reliability. The problem of cold-weather startup had been a key obstacle to the commercialization of fuel cell vehicles. In 2003, Honda solved the problem with the introduction of the Honda FC Stack, the world’s first fuel cell that can be used at temperatures as low as –20° C. The V Flow fuel cell stack, on the other hand, now delivers ultra-low-temperature start-up performance on par with that of a gasoline engine.

    The article I read said that the reason they aren't gonig immediately nationwide is because they need to set up a network of hydrgen fueling stations first.

    Electric cars tend to be expensive as well as very short on mileage per charge; they've never really built a battey large enough to give the electric car much mileage per charge. I like them as a commuter car. The solar grid idea may be workable in a sunny area, I don't know, but I do know that solar technology is expensive, because I've been inquiring about it to build a home in Nevada.


    http://www.fuelcells.org/basics/bene...FQqfHgodJ2hPsQ

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...rive-fcx_N.htm

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005..._more_pow.html

    Yes, at the time they leased that FCX to a test family, gasoline was $2.00-2.25 gallon and hydrogen was $4.79 per "unit", but contained 2x the equivalent energy content. I concede the hydrogen is way cleaner and more efficient if its not made/transported by fossil fuel means.

    If honda is saying 95% of the hydrogen today is made by natural gas, its a "cleaner" source of energy, but its still a produces pollution more than "nothing". I wonder how much energy is lost in transistion from NG to hydrogen vs just filling a Honda Civic GSX NG car which gets the equivalent of 33mpg energy content of gasoline, but costs 1/3 the price (approx $1 gallon equivalent currently).

    And then there is distribution. You had semis delivering gasoline that use Diesel fuel. You will either have to truck hydrogen around, which will be very unsafe, or build an entire network of hydrogen infrastructure like natural gas has currently.

    Or you could just side step all those and buy a natural gas car and a home filling station that runs off your home NG line like Honda currently does with its GSX. That is a better use of NG in my opinion.

    Regarding tempurature, -20 C = -4 F. It gets near -20F around here in late Jan early Feb. So for some people even that will not be practical at current technology. People in the south would be very well suited though if it were produced cleanly

    However, if they can get hydrogen from water via a clean source of energy like solar or wind, that would be be the pinnacle of energy supply!

    Solar is definately viable in Nevada, though expensive, you could easily set up a very small panel just to plug your car into at night. It would require some battery storage, but a battery car with solar would be a lot simplier than hydrogen from water if we are talking clean energy...or even hydrogen from NG because of the transport issues at current times.
    Last edited by toastblows; January 15th, 2008 at 01:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toastblows View Post
    Yes, at the time they leased that FCX to a test family, gasoline was $2.00-2.25 gallon and hydrogen was $4.79 per "unit", but contained 2x the equivalent energy content. I concede the hydrogen is way cleaner and more efficient if its not made/transported by fossil fuel means.

    If honda is saying 95% of the hydrogen today is made by natural gas, its a "cleaner" source of energy, but its still a produces pollution more than "nothing". I wonder how much energy is lost in transistion from NG to hydrogen vs just filling a Honda Civic GSX NG car which gets the equivalent of 33mpg energy content of gasoline, but costs 1/3 the price (approx $1 gallon equivalent currently).

    And then there is distribution. You had semis delivering gasoline that use Diesel fuel. You will either have to truck hydrogen around, which will be very unsafe, or build an entire network of hydrogen infrastructure like natural gas has currently.

    Or you could just side step all those and buy a natural gas car and a home filling station that runs off your home NG line like Honda currently does with its GSX. That is a better use of NG in my opinion.

    Regarding tempurature, -20 C = -4 F. It gets near -20F around here in late Jan early Feb. So for some people even that will not be practical at current technology. People in the south would be very well suited though if it were produced cleanly

    However, if they can get hydrogen from water via a clean source of energy like solar or wind, that would be be the pinnacle of energy supply!

    Solar is definately viable in Nevada, though expensive, you could easily set up a very small panel just to plug your car into at night. It would require some battery storage, but a battery car with solar would be a lot simplier than hydrogen from water if we are talking clean energy...or even hydrogen from NG because of the transport issues at current times.
    So you agree that Honda has moved the ball forward even if it's solution is not perfect?
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  8. #8

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    I remember reading this article a year or two ago in popular science and I lost some trust in hydrogen, I mean there must be some reason why hydrogen cars are more or less non-existent.



    Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears

    http://www.popsci.com/popsci/technol...cbccdrcrd.html

    I think some of the problems with hydrogen listed on there have been solved,
    but as mentioned, as far as I know, hydrogen is a still a NEGATIVE energy fuel.
    Meaning it takes more energy to isolate hydrogen then it puts out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unshake View Post
    I remember reading this article a year or two ago in popular science and I lost some trust in hydrogen, I mean there must be some reason why hydrogen cars are more or less non-existent.



    Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears

    http://www.popsci.com/popsci/technol...cbccdrcrd.html

    I think some of the problems with hydrogen listed on there have been solved,
    but as mentioned, as far as I know, hydrogen is a still a NEGATIVE energy fuel.
    Meaning it takes more energy to isolate hydrogen then it puts out.
    The hydrogen car is here now. There is more than one reason why they were not here quicker. Development time is one. Resistance by the oil companies and their business friends is another. The hydrogen car, along with hybrids and electrics, will revolutionize the auto industry. The fuel cell itself may revolutionize the world. Toledo Edison and General Electric have been running a project for several years to use a single fuel cell to run an entire household. It's been economically feasible or close to it for years. I wonder what the holdup is? Electric cars still suffer from batteries of insufficient capacity, although the technology is already here. Again, I wonder what the holdup is? The hybrids are doing quite well; my wife drives one and loves it. Maybe the oil companies have less clout with Japanese companies. I hope someone here in the Forum has the skinny on these developing technologies and what the holdup is.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by toastblows View Post
    hydrogen generation as of 2007 is worse that burning straight gasoline or burning natural gas in your car.

    We arent exactly Keanu Reeves and Morgan Freeman splitting h2O atoms into hydrogen and oxygen, its coming from refined crude oil stock and natural gas currently. When you brake it down, the extra electricity and distribution by truck it takes to move Hydrogen has no benefit over gasoline or natural gas.

    If we get hydrogen from water and the electricity is not burned from fossil/nuclear, then we have a true clean abundant fuel.

    Also, Hydrogen's storage capacity on a car is probably 1/2 that of what a gas powered car can get per liter/gallon whatever. So if you have a chevy impala for example that gets 500 miles per "tank size of fuel" being gasoline, you may get 200-250 miles in the same space of hydrogen. And hydrogen is not able to be stored on a consumer vehicle below 20-30 degrees F is what i heard last.....so its -5 F today in MN....im screwed.

    Clean electricity (cars plugged in to a solar grid etc.) is probably our best shot, but whatever we do to reduce oil consumption, 1 solution will not be a fix to 100% of the problem, so im not a 100% downer on hydrogen....people in the south may one day actually make it viable!
    The right way to do it is to have nuclear plants dedicated to producing hydrogen. The advantage to that is we can put the plants anywhere we want in nice secure areas, all you need is water available. We can then use our underutilized rail system to ship the compressed hydrogen around the country just like we do coal.

    Of course, with electrolyzing all that hydrogen the earthpigs will be screaming that we're flooding the atmosphere with oxygen killing the gazelles or something. Screw them. Their goal is just making sure the US doesn't have enough, not protecting the environment.

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    I kind of liked Honda's idea that each home have a system running on natural gas that creates heat, electricity for the home, and hydrogen for the hydrogen car. A similar system could also provide electricity for electric cars when they finally decide to build a battery large enough (which they now can) to make these cars practical. Personally, I don't think the powers that be want us to be able to cut ourselves from dependency on the electric grid.

    Also, the hydrogen such a home system provides could be used to fuel another home fuel cell for supplemental power for other task such as heating water, home heating/ac, or running electrical appliances, lights, etc.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    So you agree that Honda has moved the ball forward even if it's solution is not perfect?
    Honda has always been ahead of the curve since the Civic in the 1970s...they are a quality company. I have owned an acura, 2 honda's, honda scooter, and a honda snowblower in my time, all quality machines. And yes, they are trying to test an affordable, mass marketable fuel cell car based on hydrogen fuel creating electricity.

    But, they are also working on hcci non sparkplug internal combustion engines (think diesel compression, with gas instead of diesel), electric gas hybrids, natural gas civics, and the fcx fuel cell car, and starting in 2009 clean diesel (like they have in the UK). So in their bag of what will power our cars in the future, it seems like they want to perfect it all, because ultimately they know 1 solution will not be the answer to the problem.

    Personally i would rather companies like honda abandon the hydrogen fuel cell and concentrate on electric or natural gas vehicles until such time when hydrogen can be produced and transported without any fossil fuel intervention.

    For the record, i think bmw will be first to market with the 750 hl (hydrogen or gasoline can be used as fuel source), estimated in 2010-2011.


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    Quote Originally Posted by toastblows View Post
    Honda has always been ahead of the curve since the Civic in the 1970s...they are a quality company. I have owned an acura, 2 honda's, honda scooter, and a honda snowblower in my time, all quality machines. And yes, they are trying to test an affordable, mass marketable fuel cell car based on hydrogen fuel creating electricity.

    But, they are also working on hcci non sparkplug internal combustion engines (think diesel compression, with gas instead of diesel), electric gas hybrids, natural gas civics, and the fcx fuel cell car, and starting in 2009 clean diesel (like they have in the UK). So in their bag of what will power our cars in the future, it seems like they want to perfect it all, because ultimately they know 1 solution will not be the answer to the problem.

    Personally i would rather companies like honda abandon the hydrogen fuel cell and concentrate on electric or natural gas vehicles until such time when hydrogen can be produced and transported without any fossil fuel intervention.

    For the record, i think bmw will be first to market with the 750 hl (hydrogen or gasoline can be used as fuel source), estimated in 2010-2011.

    I like the idea of a natural gas vehicle, but I know from my work with the fed govt that we have pretty much maxed out our use of NG. We thought it was going to be the solution for electric generation and so for more than ten years almost all the new generation that came on line was NG powered. But when I left govt 3 years ago native NG was about maxed out. We were trying in increase our imports of liqufied NG from Algeria and Venezuela, but it only accounted for about 1% or 2% of our entire energy profile. So where would the NG come from? More imports? We really don't have the receiving facilities to accommodate much more, and then its LNG which has to be converted back to NG. More native drilling? lol That will be the day.

    I also like the idea of electric vehicles, but what the heck is holding up the creation of a large capacity battery? they can make it; why don't they? Is it more of the oil companies' influence?
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  14. #14

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    Truly green cars are ALL ELECTRIC. zg
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Truly green cars are ALL ELECTRIC. zg
    Nada! There are five stages toward rating the greenness of a car: (1) raw materials extraction/processing; (2) pre-assembly manufacturing; (3) vehicle assembly; (4) vehicle use; (5) and end-of-life vehicle management. http://www.environmentaldefense.org/...?ContentID=928

    Even if we limit the discussion to vehicle use alone, only if the electricity the electric cars use comes from nonpolluting sources such as water, solar and wind, can they be considered truly GREEN CARS.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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