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Thread: The Illusion of the Separation of Church and State

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    Default The Illusion of the Separation of Church and State

    The Illusion of the Separation of Church and State

    (from Scientific Proof of the Existence of God Will Soon Be Announced by the White House!)

    Adi Da Samraj | October, 1980

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Avatar Adi Da Samraj is a fully Enlightened Spiritual Master, and the founder of the religion and spiritual Way of Adidam.
    This essay is from Avatar Adi Da Samraj, Scientific Proof of the Existence of God Will Soon Be Announced by the White House!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Modern societies generally acknowledge the principle of the separation of Church and State. The origin of this common principle was in the early conflicts that arose between traditional religious institutions and the emerging powers of secular scientism and technology. In the historical transition of mankind from the cultic religious basis of ancient societies to the scientific and technological basis of modern secular societies, the old religions balked at some of the implications of the "new knowledge." Therefore, if scientific technology were to provide the basis for the new era of Man, the dominance of the social order by the authority of official cultic religion had to be brought to an end.

    The principle of the separation of Church and State is simply the "civilized" device created to permit the transition from a religious to a secular order of society.

    Ever since this principle became the working norm, cultic religion itself has been gradually diminished in power and secularized in its content. And the "new knowledge" of science, which provides the dogmatic basis for what is in effect a new "Church" (or official way of knowing and living), has become more and more a critic of cultic religion. Indeed, the scientific establishment and its spawn of university intellectualism and large-scale technical and industrial enterprise have displaced the ancient culture of religion. In fact, the principle of the separation of Church and State is itself only a strategy for excluding conventional or cultic religion from the creative position of authority over the proceedings of society in general. Truly, that principle does not apply to the official "Church" of secular society.

    The State is always in league with the official "Church" of scientific materialism in all modern industrial societies. And the authority and authenticity of every religion other than science is fundamentally excluded by the dominant "Church." The Rule of science moves over the world with the heavy hand of State power, creating scandal and doubt and fear in every area of independent cultural creativity. And all religions are forced to suffer the plundering by this new "Church"-or else convert and be transformed into a species of the "new faith."

    As a result, we find that certain religious cults have submitted to a high degree of containment by the secular forces, and so they have been granted a kind of official status as "allowable cults." Such is true of mainstream Christianity and Judaism in much of the Western world.

    However, even these, along with the other cults of the "great religions," are the subjects of oppression in those secular societies in which the "Church" of scientific materialism is most clearly in power, based on its intimate association with the State, or the practical idealism of political materialism. (Such oppression is true in the absolutist secular States of European and Asian communism.)

    MORE- http://www.firmstand.org/articles/se...and_state.html
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
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  2. #2

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    So the apparent seperation is an illusion. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    So the apparent seperation is an illusion. zg
    The first amendment states:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

    In this limited sense, which is the ONLY sense legally applicable to the U.S., I believe the separation of church and state is real. People are always playing with the concept, and stretching it to mean more than it was ever intended to mean.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    The first amendment states:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

    In this limited sense, which is the ONLY sense legally applicable to the U.S., I believe the separation of church and state is real. People are always playing with the concept, and stretching it to mean more than it was ever intended to mean.
    Right. It means you can't have a national church, but if you look at the context (most states had an official church at the time) you'd never come to the conclusions the ACLU does. Doesn't mean you can't have optional prayer at school, or give money to a church to run drug rehab programs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    Right. It means you can't have a national church, but if you look at the context (most states had an official church at the time) you'd never come to the conclusions the ACLU does. Doesn't mean you can't have optional prayer at school, or give money to a church to run drug rehab programs.

    I agree. You'll get no argument from me. The whole separation question has been distorted, taken out of context, and overblown to achieve a pre-conceived agenda.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Default seperation of

    I understand the seperation part of church and state and see the danger of having them act as one. What I don't know is where we would of been if our fore fathers would have been secular. We have shown already the farther we get away from a moral compass the worst off we are. Family values or lack of there of is the crux of the problem. We will blur the wrong and the right until it is undistinghisable and we can push our on agenda whatever that may be. Wrong is wrong and right is right in any society and when you leave it to a group or groups of people that maybe fanaticly in thier believes therein lies the problem. We still live in a free society to whatever degree you call it and have the peaceful means of changing it for the greater good. blackchipjim

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackchipjim View Post
    I understand the seperation part of church and state and see the danger of having them act as one. What I don't know is where we would of been if our fore fathers would have been secular. We have shown already the farther we get away from a moral compass the worst off we are. Family values or lack of there of is the crux of the problem. We will blur the wrong and the right until it is undistinghisable and we can push our on agenda whatever that may be. Wrong is wrong and right is right in any society and when you leave it to a group or groups of people that maybe fanaticly in thier believes therein lies the problem. We still live in a free society to whatever degree you call it and have the peaceful means of changing it for the greater good. blackchipjim
    I personally believe that even the atheist has an inner moral compass. So, I reject the notion that secular is bad per se. There is more danger, in my mind, from someone who belongs to a group that teaches what is immoral to be moral. This brainwashing effect corrupts the inner moral compass that we all have and leads to atrocities in the name of (fill in the blank with the name of your favorite Deity). Also, to be fair, the mass media and other sources can have a corrupting effect on an individual's moral compass without the need to join any group for this service. Nowadays, brainwashing is free of charge without a healthcare card to even the most indigent among us.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    There is more danger, in my mind, from someone who belongs to a group that teaches what is immoral to be moral.
    Like those who consider gambling to be immoral
    Or the whole reason why marijuana is illegal/immoral today Kinda funny how fanatics can make their views commonplace.

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    Default compass

    If a societies have a natural moral compass explain cannabilism in the remote jungles of some countries. Please explain the rampant spread of aids in africa and the mutulation of young girls gentialia in those countries. Mayan's use to slaughter people for sacrifices to the gods but that didn't make them right. Morals are a precieved by the society that teaches them if the society is corrupt so are their morals(Soddom and Gommorah). The issue of drug use and gambling are indeed moral issues some of which I have been called on. The excess of the either would be wrong but may not be in moderation. I would not postulize on the subject on a moral basis. blackchipjim

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackchipjim View Post
    If a societies have a natural moral compass explain cannabilism in the remote jungles of some countries.
    Cannibilism is a metaphor for Western civilization itself.
    Please explain the rampant spread of aids in africa
    Genocide foisted upon them by the West.
    Mayan's use to slaughter people for sacrifices to the gods but that didn't make them right.
    That practice continues today by VERY HIGH ELITE - Al Gore, the Queen of England, etc.
    The issue of drug use and gambling are indeed moral issues some of which I have been called on. The excess of the either would be wrong but may not be in moderation. I would not postulize on the subject on a moral basis. blackchipjim
    Drug use is a natural desire - an aspect of man's drive towards self transcendence. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackchipjim View Post
    If a societies have a natural moral compass explain cannabilism in the remote jungles of some countries. Please explain the rampant spread of aids in africa and the mutulation of young girls gentialia in those countries. Mayan's use to slaughter people for sacrifices to the gods but that didn't make them right. Morals are a precieved by the society that teaches them if the society is corrupt so are their morals(Soddom and Gommorah). The issue of drug use and gambling are indeed moral issues some of which I have been called on. The excess of the either would be wrong but may not be in moderation. I would not postulize on the subject on a moral basis. blackchipjim
    My thought comes from Romans 2:13-16:

    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


    The socialization process, if you can call it that, in a cannibal society, apparently brainwashes those born into it to believe that cannibalism is good, thus forming in them what is called an erroneous conscience. But left alone, I believe that people can come to recognize right from wrong from what God has already implanted in their hearts. To what degree a cannibal is guilty before God, only God can say.

    Sodom and Gommorah seem especially guilty because they apparently had the proper teaching, but chose to do what was displeasing to God instead.

    Just because you have a moral compass, does not mean that you will necessarily follow it.
    Last edited by aslan; February 15th, 2008 at 11:22 AM.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Just because you have a moral compass, does not mean that you will necessarily follow it.
    Amen Brother Aslan. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChefJJ View Post
    Like those who consider gambling to be immoral
    Or the whole reason why marijuana is illegal/immoral today Kinda funny how fanatics can make their views commonplace.
    "LSD and marijuana causes intense psychosis, in people who don't use them" -- timothy leary
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackchipjim View Post
    Please explain the rampant spread of aids in africa
    Religious objections to condoms and birth control.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackchipjim View Post
    and the mutulation of young girls gentialia in those countries.
    Religious concepts of sexual morality and misunderstandings of sexual behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackchipjim View Post
    Mayan's use to slaughter people for sacrifices to the gods
    'Nuff said.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackchipjim View Post
    Morals are a precieved by the society that teaches them if the society is corrupt so are their morals.
    Which is a good reason to discourage the spread of blind faith and ancient traditions. They are a corruptive force in all societies. The more people think for themselves and embrace social progress the better a society will be. Many religions have recognized this and have made great progress towards the truth. But religion by nature holds on to the past and is slow to accept the present. Secular societies are much quicker to react and embrace civil rights and social equality.
    Truth demands knowledge. Deceit demands faith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post


    Which is a good reason to discourage the spread of blind faith and ancient traditions. They are a corruptive force in all societies. The more people think for themselves and embrace social progress the better a society will be. Many religions have recognized this and have made great progress towards the truth. But religion by nature holds on to the past and is slow to accept the present. Secular societies are much quicker to react and embrace civil rights and social equality.
    Um, which religions are those? ... and which truth are you referring to? Br Aslan has said repeatedly ad nauseum here on the ZZ that his Catholic church is the only one that that has god's pure word.


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