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    Default Adi Da Samraj and ZG?

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Since about 1976 I've been a student and advocate of Adi Da Samraj. zg
    Zen you don't believe in Jesus Christ but you believe this guy? How can you say the bible is mythology yet while believing this?

    [the following is taken from the Adiam link I have provided]

    The Divine Being and Reality, Descended to here in the form of the Ruchira Avatar, Adi Da Samraj, is Responding to aeons of human prayers and sacrifice, as to an immense magnet. He is here to transform humankind, and more than humankind. He is here to illumine the very molecules, and even all of manifest existence. This is what He has been Doing since His Birth. For His human Birth was more than His association with a human body. His birth on earth was the initiation of an infinite and ongoing process. That process can be described as His—Emergence—as a tangible, identifiable Presence—in the heart of all that exists.


    Adidam

    Wikipedia entry on Adi Da

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    Quote Originally Posted by person1125 View Post
    Zen you don't believe in Jesus Christ but you believe this guy? How can you say the bible is mythology yet while believing this?

    [the following is taken from the Adiam link I have provided]

    The Divine Being and Reality, Descended to here in the form of the Ruchira Avatar, Adi Da Samraj, is Responding to aeons of human prayers and sacrifice, as to an immense magnet. He is here to transform humankind, and more than humankind. He is here to illumine the very molecules, and even all of manifest existence. This is what He has been Doing since His Birth. For His human Birth was more than His association with a human body. His birth on earth was the initiation of an infinite and ongoing process. That process can be described as His—Emergence—as a tangible, identifiable Presence—in the heart of all that exists.
    What I expressly do not beleive in is the mythologized Yeshua - "the one and only son of God".

    Such claim of exclusive divintiy is corruptive, deceptive exoteric mythological claptrap for control of humanity.

    I can, however, readily accept that various Avatars throughout history - Jesus - Buddha - Krishna, etc. incarnated to fullfil the dharma of a particular era.

    Just as the masses and the church of Yeshua's time did not recognize Him, so perhaps the Maha Siddha of our era also goes largely unrecognized.

    So I've been an advocate of Adi Da since 1974. Almost as long as I've been a card-counter. zg

    .
    Last edited by zengrifter; August 12th, 2007 at 10:46 PM.
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    What I expressly do believe in is the non-mythologized, real Yeshua - "the one and only son of God".

    His claim of exclusive divinity, and His example of self-giving love even to the extent of death on a cross, is truthful and life-giving, providing the foundation for real wisdom, and a true religion, both esoteric and exoteric, for the liberation of humanity.

    I cannot, however, ever accept that various Avatars throughout history - Jesus (allegedly) - Buddha - Krishna, etc. incarnated to fullfil the dharma of a particular era. This is corruptive, deceptive non-esoteric mythological claptrap for control of humanity, making the mind unreceptive to the revealed truth of God.

    Just as the masses and the church of Yeshua's time did not recognize Him, so many people of this day continue to fail to recognize Him and turn to such self-deceived frauds as the Maha Siddha.

    So I've been an advocate of Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, since 1966. Almost as long as I've been a Catholic by choice, not birth. azzy
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
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    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    His claim of exclusive divinity...
    Yeshua did NOT make a claim of exclusivity. IF and when He really did say, "I and the father are ONE," he also said, "AND SO ARE ALL OF YOU, ONE WITH THE FATHER."

    That is the true message of all the Avatars of planetary history: YOU ARE IT!

    Once you accept the fraudulent nature of the Bible you can begin to grok the truth of your Avatar.

    Without recognition of the grotesque manipulation that your chosen spiritual book underwent to be offered as some infallible divine manefesto to control you, you can only see Yeshua as a one-of-a-kind 'freak of nature' and not as a natural evolutionary agent of awakened consciousness that perhaps he was.

    Get beyond the storybook and delve into the LIGHT. zg
    Last edited by zengrifter; August 13th, 2007 at 02:15 AM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
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    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Yeshua did NOT make a claim of exclusivity. IF and when He really did say, "I and the father are ONE," he also said, "AND SO ARE ALL OF YOU, ONE WITH THE FATHER."

    That is the true message of all the Avatars of planetary history: YOU ARE IT!

    Once you accept the fraudulent nature of the Bible you can begin to grok the truth of your Avatar.
    What is your basis for believing that the Bible said these sorts of things?

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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    What is your basis for believing that the Bible said these sorts of things?
    I didn't say that the Bible said it. Look beyond the Bible if you are to look beyond your enculturated mythology. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
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    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Yeshua did NOT make a claim of exclusivity.
    There are numerous passages in which his followers stated that he was the Son of God in the exclusive sense, and there are several passages in which Jesus Himself makes this claim. You know what they are. But your next argument will be to deny the truthfulness of the Bible itself, so with your style of reasoning and argumentation, there is no possibility of winning an argument--you simply assert that it is a lie. I'm just pointing out that your statement above is false.

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    IF and when He really did say, "I and the father are ONE," he also said, "AND SO ARE ALL OF YOU, ONE WITH THE FATHER."
    Jesus said: I and [my] Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jhn 10:30-31

    They took up stones because they knew exactly what he was claiming--equality with God. It is different to be one "with" God.

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    That is the true message of all the Avatars of planetary history: YOU ARE IT!

    Once you accept the fraudulent nature of the Bible you can begin to grok the truth of your Avatar.
    This Avatar theory is a fanciful human weaving. It is untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Without recognition of the grotesque manipulation that your chosen spiritual book underwent to be offered as some infallible divine manefesto to control you, you can only see Yeshua as a one-of-a-kind 'freak of nature' and not as a natural evolutionary agent of awakened consciousness that perhaps he was.
    THe so-called manipulation was in fact necessary action to protect and preserve the truth of the gospels and epistles from error that was attacking the faith from all sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Get beyond the storybook and delve into the LIGHT. zg
    [/QUOTE]

    I am already far, far beyond stories and tales. All truth leads to Jesus Christ. If the Avatar eventually leads you to Jesus Christ, then I will be glad that even the natural mind can find truth through its many devices and reasonings. Revealed truth in the person of Jesus Christ is an easier path to truth. But for those who do not believe in Jesus, it's my belief that God will judge them by the content of their hearts. I do believe you have a good heart, although sometimes overzealous in putting down contrary points of view.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    But for those who do not believe in Jesus, it's my belief that God will judge them by the content of their hearts. I do believe you have a good heart, although sometimes overzealous in putting down contrary points of view.
    Thank you. I trust your integrity in the above. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Yeshua did NOT make a claim of exclusivity. IF and when He really did say, "I and the father are ONE," he also said, "AND SO ARE ALL OF YOU, ONE WITH THE FATHER."

    That is the true message of all the Avatars of planetary history: YOU ARE IT!

    Once you accept the fraudulent nature of the Bible you can begin to grok the truth of your Avatar.

    Without recognition of the grotesque manipulation that your chosen spiritual book underwent to be offered as some infallible divine manefesto to control you, you can only see Yeshua as a one-of-a-kind 'freak of nature' and not as a natural evolutionary agent of awakened consciousness that perhaps he was.

    Get beyond the storybook and delve into the LIGHT. zg
    Theologically I'm in agreement with you about the nature of Jesus. He never elevated himself above others. Jesus prayed, and I assume he was not praying to himself. When he asked God to forgive his tormentors, he wasn't asking himself to forgive his tormentors.

    When the Apostles prayed, they prayed "Our Father who art in Heaven", not "Jesus' Father who art in Heaven." I'm not sure that Jesus took the Hindu approach that man and God are the same thing, but I think he was giving us a proper outlook on the relationship between God and man (father and child rather than master and servant, or ruler and subject.)

    But there's no reason to mock the Bible as the majority of Christians interpret it, nor the mainstream churches which give comfort to millions. I'm not going to mock Adi Da. He probably has a lot of worthwhile ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey View Post
    I'm not sure that Jesus took the Hindu approach that man and God are the same thing, but I think he was giving us a proper outlook on the relationship between God and man (father and child rather than master and servant, or ruler and subject.)
    Father and child is exactly NOT right relationship to Divine Light Being. Nor can it be a master-subject thing, because there is ONLY ONE.

    IF there was Yeshua he was the Parusha* of his cultural-historic era. BUT I've seen much to dispute the factual basis. zg
    *Sanskrit - Purusa - (“person,” or “spirit”), in Indian philosophy, the soul, or self. The existence of an eternal, unchanging self is accepted by most schools of Indian philosophy, though they differ in their description of its essence and the proofs for its existence. In Samkhya, a school of Hindu philosophy, Purusha is pure consciousness. It is thought to be our true identity,
    Last edited by zengrifter; August 14th, 2007 at 02:32 PM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey View Post
    Theologically I'm in agreement with you about the nature of Jesus. He never elevated himself above others. Jesus prayed, and I assume he was not praying to himself. When he asked God to forgive his tormentors, he wasn't asking himself to forgive his tormentors.

    When the Apostles prayed, they prayed "Our Father who art in Heaven", not "Jesus' Father who art in Heaven." I'm not sure that Jesus took the Hindu approach that man and God are the same thing, but I think he was giving us a proper outlook on the relationship between God and man (father and child rather than master and servant, or ruler and subject.)

    But there's no reason to mock the Bible as the majority of Christians interpret it, nor the mainstream churches which give comfort to millions. I'm not going to mock Adi Da. He probably has a lot of worthwhile ideas.
    What a surprise, the esteemed Dr AutoMonk has some deluded Christian beliefs... just like the others here. Monkey, in the first instance, there is no proof this Jesus of yours actually existed, let alone said all those things that are attributed to him in that rickety Hebrew Bible of yours.

    There are no eyewitness accounts of anything in this regard. Only hearsay stuff written in that Book of Lies. Is that all you have to go on? I think so... 66 books written by anonymous goat-herding, tribal, bronze-age herdsmen? Git outta here! I suppose your childhood indoctrination impressed on you that book is the word of god. That is the only rational explanation I have for your religious zealotry.

    I believe you once wrote some stuff for the GOP. That was probably for the Tea Party. Am I right? Their lunacy has a distinct Fundy flavor to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    What I expressly DO believe in is the non-mythologized, real Yeshua - "the one and only son of God".

    His claim of exclusive divinity, and His example of self-giving love even to the extent of death on a cross, is truthful and life-giving, providing the foundation for real wisdom, and a true religion, both esoteric and exoteric, for the liberation of humanity.

    I cannot, however, ever accept that various Avatars throughout history - Jesus (allegedly) - Buddha - Krishna, etc. incarnated to fullfil the dharma of a particular era. This is corruptive, deceptive non-esoteric mythological claptrap for control of humanity, making the mind unreceptive to the revealed truth of God.

    Just as the masses and the church of Yeshua's time did not recognize Him, so many people of this day continue to fail to recognize Him and turn to such self-deceived frauds as the Maha Siddha.

    So I've been an advocate of Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, since 1966. Almost as long as I've been a Catholic by choice, not birth. azzy
    Wow, you go Azzyman!

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    Zen-

    So you DO believe in Jesus Christ just not that he was the one and only son of God. I disagree with you in this belief, but will say this:

    I respect what you have to say and will give a read to some of the links you have given. Also I do respect you in that at least you are passionate and knowledgeable to what you believe. There are so many people in the world today, whether it be Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, etc., where if you were to ask them questions they would be like "I don't know...ummm beats me" they are very weak in their beliefs - they go through the motions without any true convictions - I can tell that you do believe what you post on this subject.

    But I have a few questions: IF Adi Da IS the divine as he claims and you believe why did he have to go through such an incredible journey in order to discover all this?? Wouldn't / Shouldn't he have known this from birth?? Also was his birth a virgin birth (miracle) or just a normal human birth (not a miracle therefore not divine)?? Also how does he know for certain that he IS the ONLY one that has reached this 7th stage....why couldn't have other 'avatars' reached this status before??
    Last edited by person1125; August 13th, 2007 at 07:22 PM. Reason: added questions

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    Quote Originally Posted by person1125 View Post
    Zen-

    So you DO believe in Jesus Christ just not that he was the one and only son of God. I disagree with you in this belief, but will say this:

    I respect what you have to say and will give a read to some of the links you have given. Also I do respect you in that at least you are passionate and knowledgeable to what you believe. There are so many people in the world today, whether it be Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, etc., where if you were to ask them questions they would be like "I don't know...ummm beats me" they are very weak in their beliefs - they go through the motions without any true convictions - I can tell that you do believe what you post on this subject.

    But I have a few questions: IF Adi Da IS the divine as he claims and you believe why did he have to go through such an incredible journey in order to discover all this?? Wouldn't / Shouldn't he have known this from birth?? Also was his birth a virgin birth (miracle) or just a normal human birth (not a miracle therefore not divine)?? Also how does he know for certain that he IS the ONLY one that has reached this 7th stage....why couldn't have other 'avatars' reached this status before??
    Given that no less than dozens of historical Avatars have been claimed to be virgin-born (Jesus, Horus, Krishna, Buddha, see -
    Just a few of the OTHER "Saviors"
    ) that to me is not any sort of test of divinity that belongs to an historical Yeshua.

    I'm borrowing part of my response from an essay that I co-authored some time ago.

    Great Spiritual Masters appear now and then, to re-Awaken human beings to that greatest human destiny of Perfect and Eternal Happiness. By "great Spiritual Masters", I mean something quite specific. If you search the web or your local bookstore, you may get the sense that "spiritual teachers" are a dime a dozen: this one teaches some variation on Tibetan Buddhism; that one offers shamanic drumming; etc.

    But the truly great Spiritual Masters are rare. They have never been merely intellectual teachers, charismatic (but otherwise ordinary) human beings, or teachers of piecemeal techniques or rituals. They are always Spiritual Transmission Masters, tangibly transmitting their Spiritual Realization to their devotees. Their Words simply reflect what their Spiritual Transmission directly communicates.

    Different Spiritual Masters transmit different Spiritual Realizations. The different Spiritual Realizations communicated by the great Masters correspond to different potential human destinies. God-Realization — Realization of Perfect, Eternal Happiness — is the greatest of all human destinies. And those rarest of Masters ("Divine Incarnations") who appear here by "crossing down" ("Avatar" literally means, "crossing down") from the Divine Domain spontaneously transmit that Divine Reality, enabling others to enter the Divine Domain themselves.

    The world's spiritual traditions are replete with stories, legends, and myths about great Masters such as Jesus, Krishna, and Guatama; much can be learned from these traditions. However, sorting out the historical fact from the mythical or orthodox embellishment is a formidable challenge. And even if we could discover what factually occurred those thousands of years ago, the question would still remain: is it still of spiritual use now? Are these Spiritual Masters still "Transmitting" in the twenty-first century?

    In contrast, Adi Da Samraj is a Divine Incarnation alive in our time. Often, Westerners react to the notion of a "Divine Incarnation" - our skepticism is born out of both the traditional Judeo-Christian notion of "God" ("How can the all-powerful God appear in limited human form?"), and our broader, materialistic doubt in the existence of anything spiritual.

    Adi Da strongly critiques the notion of God as "all-powerful", the "Creator", "in charge of the universe", etc. — even as He critiques the materialistic viewpoint, and the view of "God" as some Person-less "ground of being". Instead, He describes God as the Source: the Person in Whose Consciousness all beings and things are appearing, much as in the consciousness of a dreamer. It is possible for God to appear in the "dream" (as a "Divine Incarnation"), and for us to Awaken out of it (as God, the only ultimately Real Being): such "God-Realization" is our greatest destiny.

    For this reason, "Divine Incarnation" is not a matter of the Divine Being saying one day, "I'm the all-powerful God; I think I'll visit the earth today". It is a much more mysterious affair, dependent on a rare conjunction of circumstances that provide a "gateway" for the Divine to appear here as a character "in the dream".

    And that "dream character Avatar" is none other than one's own truest eternal self - arriving as 'liberator'.

    Thus 'Real God' is not the "Creator" but rather the Liberator of one's bondage to illusion. In my estimation, which is as much intuitive as anything, Adi Da is that One, and I have the grace-advantage that perhaps the Apostles of Yeshua had 2000 years ago.

    Better, perhaps, because I live in extraordinary times and I count cards. zg
    Adi Da Samraj:

    The Divine, or God, the One to be Realized, is not other than your real Condition. That One transcends your personal, conditional existence, but your conditional existence arises in That One. All of this appearing here is a modification of That One, a play upon That One. To Realize That One, you must enter profoundly into the Divine Self-Position, but not by means of the traditional method of inversion or of turning attention inward, which is simply one of the ego-based solutions to the presumed problem of existence.

    That Which is to be Realized is in the Divine Self-Position. And it is to be Realized not by appealing to Something outside yourself or by entering into childish dependence on some great Principle but by transcending the limits on the Divine Self-Position and Realizing the Ultimate Potency of That in Which you inhere.

    You do not become truly religious unless you truly reach this understanding and awaken to its point of view. The Parental God of childish religion cannot be proven. That One does not exist. The struggle to prove the existence of such a One is a false struggle. It is an expression of the common disease, the problem-consciousness of threatened egoity. This does not mean that people should all become like atheistic psychiatrists and throw religion away — although on the basis of a very intelligent "consideration" much of what is called "religion" should be thrown away, because it is just a consolation for rather childish egos. But there is much more to true religion than what is contained in these childish propositions. It is That Which goes beyond these childish propositions that I Call you to "consider" in the form of My Wisdom-Teaching and also in the evidence of the Great Tradition, or the total global inheritance of human culture.

    The God of conditional Nature, the "Creator-God", cannot be proven, because that One does not exist as proposed. But the Great God is Transcendental (and Inherently Spiritual) and Exists in the Divine Self-Position. In other words, That One exists at the level of your eternal Existence and not at the level of the objects related to your conditional existence, your manifested independence. This same One is also present to you in the form of all others, all objects, all states of conditional Nature — not as Other, but rather as That One in Which you inhere.

    That One is present as the Divinely Self-Realized Spiritual Master, the human Transmitter of the Divine Being, but not in any exclusive sense, not as the Holy Other but as That Which Manifests the Power of the Divine Self-Position. That One is Present as Spiritual Force, Transmitted through the Spiritual Master's Spiritual Baptism and Good Company.

    The purpose of your reception of My Spiritual Heart-Transmission, therefore, is to lead you into the Realization of That Which is in the Divine Self-Position. Its purpose is not to call you to conform to an apparent Power outside yourself that requires you to engage in activities very similar to the childish social routines of conventional religiosity.

    Thus, the Truth that is to be Realized may be summarized simply as the Realization that no matter what is arising, no matter how many others are present, there is only One Being.

    This is precisely different from the childish proposition that even when you are alone there is always Someone Else present.

    Last edited by zengrifter; August 14th, 2007 at 12:23 AM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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