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Thread: Adi Da Samraj and ZG?

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    Default Adi Da Samraj and ZG?

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Since about 1976 I've been a student and advocate of Adi Da Samraj. zg
    Zen you don't believe in Jesus Christ but you believe this guy? How can you say the bible is mythology yet while believing this?

    [the following is taken from the Adiam link I have provided]

    The Divine Being and Reality, Descended to here in the form of the Ruchira Avatar, Adi Da Samraj, is Responding to aeons of human prayers and sacrifice, as to an immense magnet. He is here to transform humankind, and more than humankind. He is here to illumine the very molecules, and even all of manifest existence. This is what He has been Doing since His Birth. For His human Birth was more than His association with a human body. His birth on earth was the initiation of an infinite and ongoing process. That process can be described as His—Emergence—as a tangible, identifiable Presence—in the heart of all that exists.


    Adidam

    Wikipedia entry on Adi Da

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    Quote Originally Posted by person1125 View Post
    Zen you don't believe in Jesus Christ but you believe this guy? How can you say the bible is mythology yet while believing this?

    [the following is taken from the Adiam link I have provided]

    The Divine Being and Reality, Descended to here in the form of the Ruchira Avatar, Adi Da Samraj, is Responding to aeons of human prayers and sacrifice, as to an immense magnet. He is here to transform humankind, and more than humankind. He is here to illumine the very molecules, and even all of manifest existence. This is what He has been Doing since His Birth. For His human Birth was more than His association with a human body. His birth on earth was the initiation of an infinite and ongoing process. That process can be described as His—Emergence—as a tangible, identifiable Presence—in the heart of all that exists.
    What I expressly do not beleive in is the mythologized Yeshua - "the one and only son of God".

    Such claim of exclusive divintiy is corruptive, deceptive exoteric mythological claptrap for control of humanity.

    I can, however, readily accept that various Avatars throughout history - Jesus - Buddha - Krishna, etc. incarnated to fullfil the dharma of a particular era.

    Just as the masses and the church of Yeshua's time did not recognize Him, so perhaps the Maha Siddha of our era also goes largely unrecognized.

    So I've been an advocate of Adi Da since 1974. Almost as long as I've been a card-counter. zg

    .
    Last edited by zengrifter; August 12th, 2007 at 09:46 PM.
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    What I expressly do believe in is the non-mythologized, real Yeshua - "the one and only son of God".

    His claim of exclusive divinity, and His example of self-giving love even to the extent of death on a cross, is truthful and life-giving, providing the foundation for real wisdom, and a true religion, both esoteric and exoteric, for the liberation of humanity.

    I cannot, however, ever accept that various Avatars throughout history - Jesus (allegedly) - Buddha - Krishna, etc. incarnated to fullfil the dharma of a particular era. This is corruptive, deceptive non-esoteric mythological claptrap for control of humanity, making the mind unreceptive to the revealed truth of God.

    Just as the masses and the church of Yeshua's time did not recognize Him, so many people of this day continue to fail to recognize Him and turn to such self-deceived frauds as the Maha Siddha.

    So I've been an advocate of Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, since 1966. Almost as long as I've been a Catholic by choice, not birth. azzy
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    His claim of exclusive divinity...
    Yeshua did NOT make a claim of exclusivity. IF and when He really did say, "I and the father are ONE," he also said, "AND SO ARE ALL OF YOU, ONE WITH THE FATHER."

    That is the true message of all the Avatars of planetary history: YOU ARE IT!

    Once you accept the fraudulent nature of the Bible you can begin to grok the truth of your Avatar.

    Without recognition of the grotesque manipulation that your chosen spiritual book underwent to be offered as some infallible divine manefesto to control you, you can only see Yeshua as a one-of-a-kind 'freak of nature' and not as a natural evolutionary agent of awakened consciousness that perhaps he was.

    Get beyond the storybook and delve into the LIGHT. zg
    Last edited by zengrifter; August 13th, 2007 at 01:15 AM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Yeshua did NOT make a claim of exclusivity. IF and when He really did say, "I and the father are ONE," he also said, "AND SO ARE ALL OF YOU, ONE WITH THE FATHER."

    That is the true message of all the Avatars of planetary history: YOU ARE IT!

    Once you accept the fraudulent nature of the Bible you can begin to grok the truth of your Avatar.
    What is your basis for believing that the Bible said these sorts of things?

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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    What is your basis for believing that the Bible said these sorts of things?
    I didn't say that the Bible said it. Look beyond the Bible if you are to look beyond your enculturated mythology. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    I didn't say that the Bible said it. Look beyond the Bible if you are to look beyond your enculturated mythology. zg
    Okay, then what makes you believe that Jesus said those sorts of things? The bible is a first century document written by eyewitnesses. Do you have anything similar that argues that Jesus spoke differently?

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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    Okay, then what makes you believe that Jesus said those sorts of things? The bible is a first century document written by eyewitnesses.
    I dispute the accuracy of that statement.

    As for what I believe Yeshua (may have) said, I am trying to see beyond the low-level backwater mythos and comprehend Who Yeshua is in principal, if not in actual historic fact - a bona fide Avatar. Notwithstanding, I may be able to support my claim.* zg
    *Here's a short analysis that I can agree with -

    "Ye are gods"


    ©2007 by Chris Watson

    I believe Jesus Christ, if he existed, had an experience of cosmic consciousness similar to what was experienced by Buddha, Ramana Maharshi, and many other people throughout history. Jesus apparently tried to communicate this experience to his followers as best he could, limited by the language and cultural concepts of his time and place.

    It is possible that each of us is a function of what the whole cosmos is doing at a point called here and now. In effect, each of us IS the whole universe looking at itself through our eyes. The universe is conscious and self-aware, a.k.a. God, and this awareness and consciousness is within each of us. In other words, what happened to Jesus was NOT a unique experience that only happened to one man in all history and prehistory, but something that EACH of us can experience directly when we tune in to the consciousness that is the base of our existence.

    I read the exact same Bible as the Christians do, yet I see Jesus teaching us the same message taught by Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism. Consider the following verses along with the interpretation I offer as an alternative to the mainstream Christian interpretation.
    John Chapter 10, verses 30-36 (KJV)
    10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
    10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    The King James Version of the Bible has “the” in italics before “Son of God” in verse 36. This is not for emphasis as some may think, but shows words interpolated by the translators. In this case, they were mistaken. The original Greek does NOT have an article before “Son of God,” which in Greek is equivalent to having an indefinite article. In the original Greek of this scripture, Jesus did NOT say he is the Son of God; he said I am a Son of God. He also quoted Psalm 82 that says “Ye are gods.”
    John Chapter 14, verse 12 (KJV)
    14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. HE WILL DO EVEN GREATER THINGS THAN THESE, because I am going to the Father.
    Jesus says the ordinary humans he left behind (who, according to traditional Christian mythology, are NOT divine as he is) will do greater things than Jesus did. I put those words in all-caps to emphasize them.
    John Chapter 17, verses 21-22 (KJV)
    17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE:
    Again I put some words in all-caps to emphasize them. It seems pretty clear to me that Jesus says we can be one with the Father just as he was. In other words, what happened to him is NOT something unique that could ONLY happen to him, but it can happen to each of us. Jesus even PRAYS that we can experience it too!

    Now many Christians will protest that Jesus says quite plainly:
    “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6, KJV)
    I agree, but perhaps not the way that Christians would like me to agree. It is my opinion that this “I am,” this “me” that Jesus speaks of is the big Self of divine consciousness (not the little self of the ego) that is within EACH OF US and was consciously realized by Jesus.

    Here is a plausible explanation of what happened: Jesus tried to explain his experience of cosmic consciousness as best he could, using the language and concepts available to him from the culture of his time and place. Awed by his miracles, the disciples of Jesus missed the point of what he was trying to share with them. They distorted the meaning of his message and worshipped the messenger instead. Christianity does not teach the religion OF Jesus, which was the realization of divine Sonship, but the religion ABOUT Jesus, a castrated version of the Gospel that puts Jesus on a pedestal and says that only He, and nobody else, is divine.

    For further study, I recommend anything by the late author, philosopher and “spiritual entertainer” Alan Watts, but especially pertaining to this subject Myth and Religion 3: Jesus, His Religion that I paraphrase portions of on this page. Alan Watts does a great job of explaining eastern philosophies to western audiences, and he is also good at explaining what mainstream Christianity teaches, even if he doesn't necessarily agree with it. In at least one of his audio files, Alan Watts makes the point that if Jesus had been born in India he would NOT have been crucified. When Jesus told others that he and the Father were one, they would have said “Congratulations. You finally figured it out.”

    xxx

    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    I understand that you believe Jesus to be an avatar, and perhaps not exclusively divine. Obviously, you would probably be a Christian if you thought he was the one and only Son of God. But my question is: why? Why is Jesus not exclusively divine, and why don't you believe that what the bible says about him is true? You're certainly free to believe whatever you want, but why do you believe it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Yeshua did NOT make a claim of exclusivity.
    There are numerous passages in which his followers stated that he was the Son of God in the exclusive sense, and there are several passages in which Jesus Himself makes this claim. You know what they are. But your next argument will be to deny the truthfulness of the Bible itself, so with your style of reasoning and argumentation, there is no possibility of winning an argument--you simply assert that it is a lie. I'm just pointing out that your statement above is false.

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    IF and when He really did say, "I and the father are ONE," he also said, "AND SO ARE ALL OF YOU, ONE WITH THE FATHER."
    Jesus said: I and [my] Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jhn 10:30-31

    They took up stones because they knew exactly what he was claiming--equality with God. It is different to be one "with" God.

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    That is the true message of all the Avatars of planetary history: YOU ARE IT!

    Once you accept the fraudulent nature of the Bible you can begin to grok the truth of your Avatar.
    This Avatar theory is a fanciful human weaving. It is untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Without recognition of the grotesque manipulation that your chosen spiritual book underwent to be offered as some infallible divine manefesto to control you, you can only see Yeshua as a one-of-a-kind 'freak of nature' and not as a natural evolutionary agent of awakened consciousness that perhaps he was.
    THe so-called manipulation was in fact necessary action to protect and preserve the truth of the gospels and epistles from error that was attacking the faith from all sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Get beyond the storybook and delve into the LIGHT. zg
    [/QUOTE]

    I am already far, far beyond stories and tales. All truth leads to Jesus Christ. If the Avatar eventually leads you to Jesus Christ, then I will be glad that even the natural mind can find truth through its many devices and reasonings. Revealed truth in the person of Jesus Christ is an easier path to truth. But for those who do not believe in Jesus, it's my belief that God will judge them by the content of their hearts. I do believe you have a good heart, although sometimes overzealous in putting down contrary points of view.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    I understand that you believe Jesus to be an avatar, and perhaps not exclusively divine. Obviously, you would probably be a Christian if you thought he was the one and only Son of God. But my question is: why? Why is Jesus not exclusively divine, and why don't you believe that what the bible says about him is true? You're certainly free to believe whatever you want, but why do you believe it?
    Why: Because I have seen beyond the mythos. The Truth is more scientific, logical, intuitive, experiential, and palatable. The Truth is also a great taboo - the great taboo that Yeshua Himself presumably violated and for which he was supposedly crucified.

    And others throughout have also been vilified and crucified for this great 'heresy" - Tat Swam Asai or YOU ARE IT. zg
    ------------
    Book Excerpt
    The Ancient Reality-Teachings
    from the Introduction - Part Three
    by Carolyn Lee, PhD


    In the fifth stage "point of view" there are two realities — the world and the Divine, but the world is deemed to be made of the same "stuff" as the Divine.

    The sixth stage traditions insist that Reality is only Transcendental — the Very Self, or Nirvanic Truth, inherently One, and that the world is mere illusion, not real, not in fact existing.

    This is the fundamental philosophy of non dualism as declared in the traditional texts in this book — both the Advaitic texts and the Buddhist texts.

    Adi Da Samraj supports this basic sixth stage understanding and Realization as the pinnacle of the Great Tradition. However, as He has Revealed, in the seventh stage of life there is a further unfolding of Truth.

    The fact that conditions appear to exist ceases to be an issue that must be resolved — either by declaring conditions to be "Divine" in the fifth stage manner, or by seeking to turn away from conditions and affirm the exclusive Reality of Consciousness, in the sixth stage manner.

    AND HERE -

    In the seventh stage of life, there is no need to account for the worlds of experience. Rather, the regenerated form of Amrita Nadi radiates boundlessly to Infinity and there is no inwardness whatsoever, no "difference" between "outer" and "inner" and "root".

    The gross, subtle, and causal structure is seen to be just the functional psycho physical design of the human body mind, and even of all of conditional existence.

    Beyond the entire esoteric anatomy, beyond the apparent structure even of the Amrita Nadi, there is Only Conscious Light, the "Bright", the One Reality and Truth, in and as Which all conditions arise and pass as mere modifications of Itself.

    Thus, in the seventh stage of life, there is the most profound recognition of the status of conditions, or, in the words of Adi Da Samraj, there is the "Divine Self Recognition" of all that seems to appear.

    xxx
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    3rd Millennium Spirituality Quotes -
    The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity.
    - Albert Einstein -

    Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
    - Buddha -

    One can know one's Self only with one's own eye of knowledge, and not with somebody else's.
    - Ramana Maharshi -

    In oneself lies the whole world, and if you know how to look and learn, then the door is there and the key is in your hand. Nobody on earth can give you either that key or the door to open, except yourself.
    - J. Krishnamurti -

    xxx
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    But for those who do not believe in Jesus, it's my belief that God will judge them by the content of their hearts. I do believe you have a good heart, although sometimes overzealous in putting down contrary points of view.
    Thank you. I trust your integrity in the above. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Zen-

    So you DO believe in Jesus Christ just not that he was the one and only son of God. I disagree with you in this belief, but will say this:

    I respect what you have to say and will give a read to some of the links you have given. Also I do respect you in that at least you are passionate and knowledgeable to what you believe. There are so many people in the world today, whether it be Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, etc., where if you were to ask them questions they would be like "I don't know...ummm beats me" they are very weak in their beliefs - they go through the motions without any true convictions - I can tell that you do believe what you post on this subject.

    But I have a few questions: IF Adi Da IS the divine as he claims and you believe why did he have to go through such an incredible journey in order to discover all this?? Wouldn't / Shouldn't he have known this from birth?? Also was his birth a virgin birth (miracle) or just a normal human birth (not a miracle therefore not divine)?? Also how does he know for certain that he IS the ONLY one that has reached this 7th stage....why couldn't have other 'avatars' reached this status before??
    Last edited by person1125; August 13th, 2007 at 06:22 PM. Reason: added questions

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