+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 43

Thread: Adi Da Samraj and ZG?

  1. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by person1125 View Post
    Zen-

    So you DO believe in Jesus Christ just not that he was the one and only son of God. I disagree with you in this belief, but will say this:

    I respect what you have to say and will give a read to some of the links you have given. Also I do respect you in that at least you are passionate and knowledgeable to what you believe. There are so many people in the world today, whether it be Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, etc., where if you were to ask them questions they would be like "I don't know...ummm beats me" they are very weak in their beliefs - they go through the motions without any true convictions - I can tell that you do believe what you post on this subject.

    But I have a few questions: IF Adi Da IS the divine as he claims and you believe why did he have to go through such an incredible journey in order to discover all this?? Wouldn't / Shouldn't he have known this from birth?? Also was his birth a virgin birth (miracle) or just a normal human birth (not a miracle therefore not divine)?? Also how does he know for certain that he IS the ONLY one that has reached this 7th stage....why couldn't have other 'avatars' reached this status before??
    Given that no less than dozens of historical Avatars have been claimed to be virgin-born (Jesus, Horus, Krishna, Buddha, see -
    Just a few of the OTHER "Saviors"
    ) that to me is not any sort of test of divinity that belongs to an historical Yeshua.

    I'm borrowing part of my response from an essay that I co-authored some time ago.

    Great Spiritual Masters appear now and then, to re-Awaken human beings to that greatest human destiny of Perfect and Eternal Happiness. By "great Spiritual Masters", I mean something quite specific. If you search the web or your local bookstore, you may get the sense that "spiritual teachers" are a dime a dozen: this one teaches some variation on Tibetan Buddhism; that one offers shamanic drumming; etc.

    But the truly great Spiritual Masters are rare. They have never been merely intellectual teachers, charismatic (but otherwise ordinary) human beings, or teachers of piecemeal techniques or rituals. They are always Spiritual Transmission Masters, tangibly transmitting their Spiritual Realization to their devotees. Their Words simply reflect what their Spiritual Transmission directly communicates.

    Different Spiritual Masters transmit different Spiritual Realizations. The different Spiritual Realizations communicated by the great Masters correspond to different potential human destinies. God-Realization — Realization of Perfect, Eternal Happiness — is the greatest of all human destinies. And those rarest of Masters ("Divine Incarnations") who appear here by "crossing down" ("Avatar" literally means, "crossing down") from the Divine Domain spontaneously transmit that Divine Reality, enabling others to enter the Divine Domain themselves.

    The world's spiritual traditions are replete with stories, legends, and myths about great Masters such as Jesus, Krishna, and Guatama; much can be learned from these traditions. However, sorting out the historical fact from the mythical or orthodox embellishment is a formidable challenge. And even if we could discover what factually occurred those thousands of years ago, the question would still remain: is it still of spiritual use now? Are these Spiritual Masters still "Transmitting" in the twenty-first century?

    In contrast, Adi Da Samraj is a Divine Incarnation alive in our time. Often, Westerners react to the notion of a "Divine Incarnation" - our skepticism is born out of both the traditional Judeo-Christian notion of "God" ("How can the all-powerful God appear in limited human form?"), and our broader, materialistic doubt in the existence of anything spiritual.

    Adi Da strongly critiques the notion of God as "all-powerful", the "Creator", "in charge of the universe", etc. — even as He critiques the materialistic viewpoint, and the view of "God" as some Person-less "ground of being". Instead, He describes God as the Source: the Person in Whose Consciousness all beings and things are appearing, much as in the consciousness of a dreamer. It is possible for God to appear in the "dream" (as a "Divine Incarnation"), and for us to Awaken out of it (as God, the only ultimately Real Being): such "God-Realization" is our greatest destiny.

    For this reason, "Divine Incarnation" is not a matter of the Divine Being saying one day, "I'm the all-powerful God; I think I'll visit the earth today". It is a much more mysterious affair, dependent on a rare conjunction of circumstances that provide a "gateway" for the Divine to appear here as a character "in the dream".

    And that "dream character Avatar" is none other than one's own truest eternal self - arriving as 'liberator'.

    Thus 'Real God' is not the "Creator" but rather the Liberator of one's bondage to illusion. In my estimation, which is as much intuitive as anything, Adi Da is that One, and I have the grace-advantage that perhaps the Apostles of Yeshua had 2000 years ago.

    Better, perhaps, because I live in extraordinary times and I count cards. zg
    Adi Da Samraj:

    The Divine, or God, the One to be Realized, is not other than your real Condition. That One transcends your personal, conditional existence, but your conditional existence arises in That One. All of this appearing here is a modification of That One, a play upon That One. To Realize That One, you must enter profoundly into the Divine Self-Position, but not by means of the traditional method of inversion or of turning attention inward, which is simply one of the ego-based solutions to the presumed problem of existence.

    That Which is to be Realized is in the Divine Self-Position. And it is to be Realized not by appealing to Something outside yourself or by entering into childish dependence on some great Principle but by transcending the limits on the Divine Self-Position and Realizing the Ultimate Potency of That in Which you inhere.

    You do not become truly religious unless you truly reach this understanding and awaken to its point of view. The Parental God of childish religion cannot be proven. That One does not exist. The struggle to prove the existence of such a One is a false struggle. It is an expression of the common disease, the problem-consciousness of threatened egoity. This does not mean that people should all become like atheistic psychiatrists and throw religion away — although on the basis of a very intelligent "consideration" much of what is called "religion" should be thrown away, because it is just a consolation for rather childish egos. But there is much more to true religion than what is contained in these childish propositions. It is That Which goes beyond these childish propositions that I Call you to "consider" in the form of My Wisdom-Teaching and also in the evidence of the Great Tradition, or the total global inheritance of human culture.

    The God of conditional Nature, the "Creator-God", cannot be proven, because that One does not exist as proposed. But the Great God is Transcendental (and Inherently Spiritual) and Exists in the Divine Self-Position. In other words, That One exists at the level of your eternal Existence and not at the level of the objects related to your conditional existence, your manifested independence. This same One is also present to you in the form of all others, all objects, all states of conditional Nature — not as Other, but rather as That One in Which you inhere.

    That One is present as the Divinely Self-Realized Spiritual Master, the human Transmitter of the Divine Being, but not in any exclusive sense, not as the Holy Other but as That Which Manifests the Power of the Divine Self-Position. That One is Present as Spiritual Force, Transmitted through the Spiritual Master's Spiritual Baptism and Good Company.

    The purpose of your reception of My Spiritual Heart-Transmission, therefore, is to lead you into the Realization of That Which is in the Divine Self-Position. Its purpose is not to call you to conform to an apparent Power outside yourself that requires you to engage in activities very similar to the childish social routines of conventional religiosity.

    Thus, the Truth that is to be Realized may be summarized simply as the Realization that no matter what is arising, no matter how many others are present, there is only One Being.

    This is precisely different from the childish proposition that even when you are alone there is always Someone Else present.

    Last edited by zengrifter; August 13th, 2007 at 11:23 PM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  2. #17
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Yeshua did NOT make a claim of exclusivity. IF and when He really did say, "I and the father are ONE," he also said, "AND SO ARE ALL OF YOU, ONE WITH THE FATHER."

    That is the true message of all the Avatars of planetary history: YOU ARE IT!

    Once you accept the fraudulent nature of the Bible you can begin to grok the truth of your Avatar.

    Without recognition of the grotesque manipulation that your chosen spiritual book underwent to be offered as some infallible divine manefesto to control you, you can only see Yeshua as a one-of-a-kind 'freak of nature' and not as a natural evolutionary agent of awakened consciousness that perhaps he was.

    Get beyond the storybook and delve into the LIGHT. zg
    Theologically I'm in agreement with you about the nature of Jesus. He never elevated himself above others. Jesus prayed, and I assume he was not praying to himself. When he asked God to forgive his tormentors, he wasn't asking himself to forgive his tormentors.

    When the Apostles prayed, they prayed "Our Father who art in Heaven", not "Jesus' Father who art in Heaven." I'm not sure that Jesus took the Hindu approach that man and God are the same thing, but I think he was giving us a proper outlook on the relationship between God and man (father and child rather than master and servant, or ruler and subject.)

    But there's no reason to mock the Bible as the majority of Christians interpret it, nor the mainstream churches which give comfort to millions. I'm not going to mock Adi Da. He probably has a lot of worthwhile ideas.

  3. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey View Post
    I'm not sure that Jesus took the Hindu approach that man and God are the same thing, but I think he was giving us a proper outlook on the relationship between God and man (father and child rather than master and servant, or ruler and subject.)
    Father and child is exactly NOT right relationship to Divine Light Being. Nor can it be a master-subject thing, because there is ONLY ONE.

    IF there was Yeshua he was the Parusha* of his cultural-historic era. BUT I've seen much to dispute the factual basis. zg
    *Sanskrit - Purusa - (“person,” or “spirit”), in Indian philosophy, the soul, or self. The existence of an eternal, unchanging self is accepted by most schools of Indian philosophy, though they differ in their description of its essence and the proofs for its existence. In Samkhya, a school of Hindu philosophy, Purusha is pure consciousness. It is thought to be our true identity,
    Last edited by zengrifter; August 14th, 2007 at 01:32 PM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  4. #19

    Default

    ------------------------------------------
    WARNING:

    "The Dawn Horse Testament is one of the
    principle false doctrines of our current time!"
    --Pastor John Hagee, Cornerstone Church
    --------------------------------------------

    The following excerpt is taken from Avatar Adi Da’s Paramount “Source-Text”,
    The Dawn Horse Testament Of The Ruchira Avatar.



    Divine Ignorance

    “Consider” any thing, other, or conditional event, and Observe That This Is So. “Consider” The Letter “M”, For Example. Picture It In mind, or In print, or Write It Down By hand (Even many times). “Consider” All That You (as the psycho-physical self) experience or know About The Letter “M”. Do You (in mind or in body) experience or know What The Letter “M” Is? Is? Altogether and Really Is? No. And What Does This “Consideration” Reveal About You (as the Presumed and Presumptuous body-mind-“I”)? Indeed, What Is the body? What Is the mind? What Is “You”? Through Such “Consideration”, Feel and Be The Feeling Of This “Ignorance” Itself. That body-Transcending, mind-Transcending, and ego-Transcending Feeling-Ignorance Is The Native Intuition Of What Is (and Of The Only One Who Is).

    The conventional subject-object Illusion (or The Common Illusory Presumption That Characterizes the conditional self) Is The Presumption That whatever arises Is Already (or Certainly Can Be) Really experienced or known. The conditional self Is Commonly Presumed To Be a knower—but, In Truth, the conditional self Is Inherently Ignorant. All conditional, perceptual, experiential, conceptual, or conventional knowledge Is Founded On The False Presumption That conditional forms or events Are Familiar. In Fact, Only Certain Formal Features Of arising phenomena Seem Familiar (Due To Repetition), Whereas (In Truth) no thing, being, or condition (or Even the conditional self itself) Is Familiar (and, Thus, Already and Completely and Really known).

    Conditional knowledge and experience (or conceptual mind and psycho-physical experience In General) Are Based Upon The
    Illusion (or The Illusory Psychology) Of Familiarity, or The Constantly Asserted Presumption That “I” (as the egoic body-mind-self) know What this or that Is”. How Can This Presumption Be True? Only a moment Of “Consideration” Will Reveal That the conditional “I” Does Not (and Cannot) know What any thing or conditional event or Even the conditional self (or ego-“I”, or self-Contraction) itself Is (Altogether, Really, and Ultimately).

    ...more - http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/2004Daw...t/sutra25.html
    Last edited by zengrifter; October 1st, 2016 at 07:47 PM. Reason: broken link
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Atlanta area
    Posts
    3,188

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    What I expressly DO believe in is the non-mythologized, real Yeshua - "the one and only son of God".

    His claim of exclusive divinity, and His example of self-giving love even to the extent of death on a cross, is truthful and life-giving, providing the foundation for real wisdom, and a true religion, both esoteric and exoteric, for the liberation of humanity.

    I cannot, however, ever accept that various Avatars throughout history - Jesus (allegedly) - Buddha - Krishna, etc. incarnated to fullfil the dharma of a particular era. This is corruptive, deceptive non-esoteric mythological claptrap for control of humanity, making the mind unreceptive to the revealed truth of God.

    Just as the masses and the church of Yeshua's time did not recognize Him, so many people of this day continue to fail to recognize Him and turn to such self-deceived frauds as the Maha Siddha.

    So I've been an advocate of Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, since 1966. Almost as long as I've been a Catholic by choice, not birth. azzy
    Wow, you go Azzyman!

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    In the YO
    Posts
    15,587

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey View Post
    Theologically I'm in agreement with you about the nature of Jesus. He never elevated himself above others. Jesus prayed, and I assume he was not praying to himself. When he asked God to forgive his tormentors, he wasn't asking himself to forgive his tormentors.

    When the Apostles prayed, they prayed "Our Father who art in Heaven", not "Jesus' Father who art in Heaven." I'm not sure that Jesus took the Hindu approach that man and God are the same thing, but I think he was giving us a proper outlook on the relationship between God and man (father and child rather than master and servant, or ruler and subject.)

    But there's no reason to mock the Bible as the majority of Christians interpret it, nor the mainstream churches which give comfort to millions. I'm not going to mock Adi Da. He probably has a lot of worthwhile ideas.
    What a surprise, the esteemed Dr AutoMonk has some deluded Christian beliefs... just like the others here. Monkey, in the first instance, there is no proof this Jesus of yours actually existed, let alone said all those things that are attributed to him in that rickety Hebrew Bible of yours.

    There are no eyewitness accounts of anything in this regard. Only hearsay stuff written in that Book of Lies. Is that all you have to go on? I think so... 66 books written by anonymous goat-herding, tribal, bronze-age herdsmen? Git outta here! I suppose your childhood indoctrination impressed on you that book is the word of god. That is the only rational explanation I have for your religious zealotry.

    I believe you once wrote some stuff for the GOP. That was probably for the Tea Party. Am I right? Their lunacy has a distinct Fundy flavor to it.

    Name:  automonk.jpg
Views: 31
Size:  59.8 KB

  7. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    I read the exact same Bible as the Christians do, yet I see Jesus teaching us the same message taught by Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism. Consider the following verses along with the interpretation I offer as an alternative to the mainstream Christian interpretation.John Chapter 10, verses 30-36 (KJV)
    10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
    10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    The King James Version of the Bible has “the” in italics before “Son of God” in verse 36. This is not for emphasis as some may think, but shows words interpolated by the translators. In this case, they were mistaken. The original Greek does NOT have an article before “Son of God,” which in Greek is equivalent to having an indefinite article. In the original Greek of this scripture, Jesus did NOT say he is the Son of God; he said I ama Son of God. He also quoted Psalm 82 that says “Ye are gods.”John Chapter 14, verse 12 (KJV)
    14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. HE WILL DO EVEN GREATER THINGS THAN THESE, because I am going to the Father.

    Jesus says the ordinary humans he left behind (who, according to traditional Christian mythology, are NOT divine as he is) will do greater things than Jesus did. I put those words in all-caps to emphasize them.John Chapter 17, verses 21-22 (KJV)
    17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, [art] in me
    , and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE

    There you have it, ladies and gentlemen ...

    ... "I and the father are One, and so are ALL of you." -- Yeshua, paraphrased by ZG
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    posting from Bethesda, MD
    Posts
    13,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    There you have it, ladies and gentlemen ...

    ... "I and the father are One, and so are ALL of you." -- Yeshua, paraphrased by ZG
    Originally Posted by zengrifter
    I read the exact same Bible as the Christians do, yet I see Jesus teaching us the same message taught by Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism.
    Oh, no you don't. None of those religions claim Jesus Christ is God Himself, not us, not all, not the universe, but God, a Being all to Himself and separate from us, who was before time began. Don't play tricks with words, because it only serves to distort the truth. It's a lie that all are God, plain and simple.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Atlanta area
    Posts
    3,188

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Oh, no you don't.
    Can't blame ZG for trying!

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    None of those religions claim Jesus Christ is God Himself, not us, not all, not the universe, but God, a Being all to Himself and separate from us, who was before time began. Don't play tricks with words, because it only serves to distort the truth. It's a lie that all are God, plain and simple.
    It appears to me that Jesus did not make claims of exclusive divinity.
    "Ye are Gods [too]." John 10:36

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    posting from Bethesda, MD
    Posts
    13,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DDutton View Post
    Can't blame ZG for trying!


    It appears to me that Jesus did not make claims of exclusive divinity.
    "Ye are Gods [too]." John 10:36
    Ye are gods. Lowercase "g". He is known throughout the New Testament as the ONLY Son of God, whereas, Christians are sons and daughters of God, lowercase "s" and "d". There is no confusion in Catholic theology who he said he was and who we believe him to be. This was all thoroughly argued out throughout Church history in all the various contrary thoughts (heresies) that arose.

    John 10:34

    Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? Douay Rheims

    Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? King James
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  11. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Ye are gods. Lowercase "g". He is known throughout the New Testament as the ONLY Son of God, whereas, Christians are sons and daughters of God, lowercase "s" and "d".
    That's just due to the relatively unsophisticated nature of those doing the interpretation.
    Had Yeshua done His thing in India, they would have understood better what He was saying.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    posting from Bethesda, MD
    Posts
    13,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    That's just due to the relatively unsophisticated nature of those doing the interpretation.
    Had Yeshua done His thing in India, they would have understood better what He was saying.
    And I might go along with you if had not raised himself from the dead, a feat which only God can perform. Add that to the identical interpretation of his words that all his closest disciples had when they went around preaching about him.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  13. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    And I might go along with you if had not raised himself from the dead, a feat which only God can perform.
    Raised from the dead is not the ultimate litmus - lots of people have.
    According to Revelationist Eschatology even the Antichrist will do it after the fatal head wound thing.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    posting from Bethesda, MD
    Posts
    13,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Raised from the dead is not the ultimate litmus - lots of people have.
    According to Revelationist Eschatology even the Antichrist will do it after the fatal head wound thing.
    Raising another person from the dead is one thing, but raising yourself from the dead is another. Not the antichrist nor anyone has that power except God. I never heard of the fatal head shot idea before. Who dreamed that one up? Or is that another one of those far-fetched interpretations of Revelations?
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    In the YO
    Posts
    15,587

    Default

    Originally Posted by zengrifter
    I read the exact same Bible as the Christians do, yet I see Jesus teaching us the same message taught by Hinduism, Buddhism and Taois.


    You read the Bible? Is that read in the present tense or read the Bible, in the past tense? Did you read it all the way through? Or did you read a chapter or two and quickly lose interest? Fancy you reading the same Bible that Christians read. Um, what can you tell us about the small bit that you managed to read all the way through?

+ Reply to Thread

Similar Threads

  1. Remembering Beloved Adi Da Samraj 1939-2008
    By zengrifter in forum Religious Cults & Spirituality
    Replies: 128
    Last Post: February 18th, 2015, 03:40 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts