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Thread: Is Bob 21 T3?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2017

    Default Is Bob 21 T3?

    Seems like good ole T3 has dropped off the map lately. If I recall, he had some health issues. But is the ultimate battler. That being said, I hope all is well.

    Just as T3 disappears, the controversial debater of many names, Bob comes on the scene. Good to see you posting more at VCT. You've made VCT quite interesting the last couple days.

    I like how you turned the 475 post thread into Jesus week to get it to 500. Some very interesting quotes and information.

    Mickey writes:
    Easter is always on the 1st sunday after the 4th full moon after christmas. It can be anywhere from march 22 to april 25. This was established in the 4th century
    Thanks Mick. I didn't know that. It seems every year I'm thinking either when is Easter coming or it's time to hide eggs already? Seems to me that weekend should coincide with the Final Four.

    Singer writes: Jesus is a well-written about real/historicle person.
    In the words of Karl. I reckon it's all written down right dar in the Bible. Some people call it the Good Book, I call it a Bible um ha.

    Bob writes:Here’s something interesting most don’t know about the week. It comes from the Bible and God’s creation week. There is no other explanation for why we have a week on our calendar.
    Interesting I didn't know that. I figured God was projecting the future. Otherwise, for instance, how would we know when to turn into Monday Night Football or the Game of the Week which was always on Saturday in baseball in the "old" days.

    Think about it. All the other events on our calendar relate to something that can be explained astronomically. A day is the length of time earth requires to rotate around its axis in relation to the sun. A month is the time it takes the moon to revolve around the earth. A year is the time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun.
    Okay, I thought about it. Now I'm done. Just kidding Bob. Good stuff. Those 12 years you spent at Friends U was worth every penny.

    A week? It has no astronomical meaning. The modern 7 day week was adopted by the Roman Empire for religious purposes. It’s to celebrate God’s creation week...He took six days to create the universe and everything in it, and then rested on the seventh day.
    THAT I knew. But thanks for the reminder.
    Last edited by Moses; May 23rd, 2019 at 11:53 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2017

    Default The Book of Job

    Slingshot writes:
    Volumes can and have been written. The book of Job- believed to be the oldest book written-even before Genesis- is extremely interesting. Well, enough. Just couldn't let this one pass by.

    Bob writes:
    sumgerburger, thanks for following up and pointing out to the group I was right. You remind me of many people I come across when I give my seminars at universities. You basically proved me right, showing that the Romans adapted the week due to its Christian roots. I don’t know if you know this, but while the Romans put Jesus to death, they also eventually converted to Christianity, which is why they went to the seven day week.

    You’re right this doesn’t prove God exists. Excellent point! You’re really on top of things.

    However, if there is a question in ones mind, the book of Job would be a quick read for summary. The mystery that surrounds human existence and the need to trust in God runs throughout this book. Mankind simply does not have enough knowledge to explain why things happen they way they do. Is it possible to rise above our limitations by faith in God? Does God know why everything happens and will work for those who believe in HIM? We may learn the profound truth in this book that when we have nothing left but God? God IS enough.

    The Book of James is also a quick read where I turn during times of trial and tribulations. Usually when my kids call for advice and direction.
    Last edited by Moses; May 23rd, 2019 at 11:00 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2017

    Default Should he have won this Lawsuit

    Tasha writes:
    A guy lost like $800,000 the same day in Vegas (He had already been clearly drunk and the Casinos still served him alcohol, so naturally he was playing stupid bets(High bets that wouldn't make sense to someone who wasn't really drunk) and he sued after getting sober claiming he shouldn't have been given even more alcohol after being clearly drunk. The Casinos countered with basically, "We are not his parents and he is not our child nor is he a child. We shouldn't have to tell a grown adult to stop drinking and gambling." IIRC, the Casino staff did mention they knew he would go after them so bad for his lost money when he sobered up and he did. He lost his lawsuit, making him a loser twice .

    Should he have won his lawsuit? I mean in my job that sells alcoholic drinks, we are told not to sell someone who is already really drunk any liquor. Bars are supposed to cut off people who are really drunk too. I saw an article saying that the guy was stumbling, slurring his words and they were still serving him alcohol. On the other hand he is an adult and didn't have to get that drunk, so I don't know.

    Bob 21 writes
    I was thinking of doing that Bosox, so now that you asked i will. Did anybody see this is what his lawyer is claiming? We don’t know if it’s true. So people should hold off judging what happened. I expect the casino was in the right, and this bozo was in the wrong.

    Of course he’s going to do that, meaning sue the casino. That’s what our society has come to. Nobody takes responsibility for their own actions anymore. It’s always someone else’s fault. It’s McDonalds fault if we’re fat. If we shoot someone, it’s some movie or video games fault for promoting violence.

    And if we gamble too much, it’s the casinos fault for letting us do that. It’s either caused by the alcohol or all the pretty girls casinos use to lure us into gambling so much we lose it all. Colin thinks it’s becaue casinos don’t have clocks on the wall.

    It’s looks like this guy is going with the alcohol excuse. Good choice! I don’t think he’d win this case if he went with the casino’s pretty girls distracted me excuse. But you never know. These days about any excuse can win in our courts. It’s always someone elses fault.

    A great subplot to the above subject. It seems, at least to me, the further away people move from Biblical references the closer they move to entitlement issues. And THAT's what is wrong with our whole country and entire existence today. For instance, the AP vs anti AP side taking at VCT. IS there a side for working hard, making sound decisions, and compete to the best of your abilities with everything you have "in" you? Do not exceed casino tolerance. Take what they give you? Treat dealers and pit bosses the way you want to be treated? Win today - play tomorrow. If so, that is where you can pencil me in.

    I get what you're saying Bob. Yes, I enjoy a Sausage McMuffin and a coffee at McD every now and then. But I also enjoy a 45 to 60 minute daily walk. The things I've witnessed in a casino that moved me couldn't possibly be said in a sermon. Bob, it's called FREE WILL.

    Now, I used to go into play with the assumption the Jesus is no longer with me. But HE will be waiting outside the door when I come out. Let's say I've reconsidered that notion to the Biblical reference HE is always with us. 1 Peter 5 7 if you will. So do I pray before play/prey? Absolutely! Now, many will say that's voodoo and doesn't help. All I'm saying to them is, it doesn't hurt either.

    But the ONE constant I've seen in casinos and on forums that relates to gambling is the Biblical quote Matthew 23.12.

    So Tasha. I hope all is well for you. My answer is NO he shouldn't have won the lawsuit. The fact there was a lawsuit in the first place is a sobering thought.
    Last edited by Moses; May 23rd, 2019 at 12:08 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2017


    Bob writes: I’m surprised APs are so gullible and believe it.

    AP and PRO are self professed titles. Worth NOTHING. Work hard, play within casino tolerance, play the best games, treat dealers/pit bosses with respect, and bet more when you're in the position of power, offers steady short term results with a consistent profit.

    KJ writes: Maybe the answer is that there should be no alcohol served on the casino floor.

    Bob, reading your debate with KJ is like watching those Nebraska games when they scheduled Division II opponents. You have a college education and give lectures for a living. KJ has a GED and can't find a boyfriend.

    His above statment is about one of the dumbest comments he's ever made. I said about - but there are so many.

    My business operates within the confines of the casino atmosphere. If we get rid of the drunks and the ploppies, how long do you think our business would last? The count, my bet, my next move is my constant thought process while sitting at the table. Now there are many things designed to interrupt that process. But, as Coach said, there will be a point in a game where everything feels like it's coming apart. The one who doesn't lose their head is generally the victor. Finding my game is my thought process when I'm not sitting at a table.

    KJ is noted for running ploppies off the tables. Casinos must love him for that. IF this were true he'd a been long gone - long ago. Let's run off people handing over their money easily so we can deal with this little asshole counting two tables and trying to count cards. Shrewd! Hell, they don't know he's lousy at it. But his bets rise and fall with the simple HILO count. So he's done once he hits a hot streak.
    Well, at least then, he has even more time to write stupid shit on forums.

    My game is designed, not intentionally, to bring others to the table. Suppose I make $500 in a session. That will probably raise someone eyebrows. But suppose I make $500 and two other guys sit down to play with a snoot full and lose $3k. Their drinking problem is not my circus and they are not my monkeys. IF I tried to "save" them from themselves they'd probably end up taking a swing at me. Point is, it's highly unlikely they would have sat down to play at an empty green chip table. So I make $500, the casino nets $2,500, and the drunk guys lose their money which was their moronic mission in the first place. A WIN WIN situation for us all. No?

    Rob writes: I have a Wounded Warrior son here until Tues. I imagine that's different about me here also.

    THAT, my good man, is what it's all about. Thank you for service to fight for our freedoms. Enjoy your time with your son, Rob. Make every minute count. Those are special times.

    Bob 21 writes: So once again, you’re pointing out the good side of casinos. Can you please give me an example where they took money from someone without that person knowing about it? I’ve never heard of this happening.

    Well yes Bob. As a matter of fact I can give many examples. Not so much the casino itself but those who lurk from within the brick and mortar. A couple of guys, mid 30s out of town, are getting shit-faced and having fun in the sportsbook. They are betting on everything from the new league in football to the harness races to trips back and forth to the poker room.

    One guy is the life of the party, offering to buy everyone a drink, and is quickly targeted. So this old fart (targeting expert) comes to their table and starts visiting. Pretty soon, he is asking for money to bring his "friend" a drink.

    The lesser intelligent drunker one of the two wins a horse race, and of course, everyone within the earshot knew he'd won. Then, the Steve Spurrier coached team made a touchdown and they went into some chant about him. In the meantime, the old fart, snatched his race ticket and went to go get in line to cash it. I watched it all go down a couple of tables away. The kid is looking for his ticket and becoming frantic. I couldn't resist, I went over and told him the old fart had lifted it and was over standing line to cash it.

    All that being said, the casinos could do a little better job of taking out the trash, IMO.

    Bob 21 writes: And Dan stays true to the principles of our country by allowing free speech and not censoring people on this site for differing opinions. Best site on the internet!!!

    Say what? Now WE can have a debate Boberino!

    Coach writes 15 minutes later; Everybody already knew that tewlj is a cocksucker

    Whoa! That was fast. The defense rests.
    Last edited by Moses; May 25th, 2019 at 10:40 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2017

    Default Ethics - Casinos

    Bob, interesting discussion I suppose. It reminds me of church where everyone complains, returns, repeats and nothing ever happens.

    In church, if you are not getting the spiritual food necessary to cope with life. Then why go? Maybe find another church.

    Am I the only one who understands the concept of "take what they give up" for casinos? They don't owe us anything and they certainly don't need APs to survive. These guys complaining are like a pimple on their butts. Getting too many to complain, they try to do something, and then it gets worse. Don't like casinos? Don't go!

    It's like being on scholarship. I like it.

    Hope y'all don't screw it up.
    Last edited by Moses; May 27th, 2019 at 10:58 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2017

    Default Bob writes:

    Here’s the thing you’re still not getting. Casinos sell gambling. They are not taking “advantage” of anybody. That is the business they are in. They want everybody to gamble as much as possible, just like airlines want people to fly as much as possible and hotels want people to stay in their hotels as much as possible. Casinos are doing NOTHING morally wrong targeting their most loyal customers, or trying to make non-loyal customers loyal, or in liberal jargon “addicts”.
    This is just good business.

    Well said Bob. Hard to believe APs haven't figured this out. It isn't Bingo in the basement of a church. The difference is in a casino you know want you're walking into...or at least you should. But life is FULL of surprises.

    Here’s the point most have been missing. There is NO way to run a casino in a free society without hurting the weaker people in our society. That’s a fact! The ones who can not eat in moderation, not drink in moderation, not gamble in moderation, etc, will be hurt when a casino opens. It’s not the fault of the casino industry that there are some weak members of our society. Call them “addicts” if that makes you feel better.

    That problem is all the boasting about winning. Sometimes I wonder how the casinos stay in business because 98% of the people never lose and most win so easily. THAT is what turns a player into an "addict." Like in prison, everyone is innocent.

    As far as the tabacoo industry, why are you upset st them too? They sell a legal product that many feel add value to their lives. If it’s legal, they should have the right to sell as much tabacoo as possible using all legal means possible. Why do you have a problem with that?

    If I'm sitting at a blackjack table. I'm not bothering anyone. Unless I'm a jerk trying to run ploppies away from tables. If someone wants to smoke that is their biz. If they are smoking in area that allows it? That is your biz if you choose to sit in that area. Don't like it? Don't stay. Now, if I'm playing blackjack and someone comes up and holds a cigarette so close to me it that is going in my face? I stop playing. IF he is not playing, it's up to the dealer to tell him what to do. This ain't a spectator sport pal. Beat it!

    I know liberals don’t like McDonald’s too, and really pretty all businesses. One liberal goofball, Michael Moore, made a movie attacking McDonald’s called “super size it”, blaming McDonald’s for why our country has fat people. Are you upset at McDonald’s too?

    So how about the guy who only eats veggies but is a semi pervert. Where does he fit in?
    Last edited by Moses; May 28th, 2019 at 10:09 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2017

    Default Kings and Queens

    KJ writes:
    I wish you guys (bob21) wouldn't demonize people by placing the liberal or conservative label on them. It is bad enough you guys went off on your religious sidetrack last week. (talk about your hijacking). And while I started this thread, it isn't my threat.

    Relax Queen Bee. No one has read all or is going to read all 629 posts mostly made up of your rants. There were a few jokes that were worthwhile. The religious sidetrack was like a breath of fresh air in Your Highness of stink turd rambling nonsense.
    Last edited by Moses; May 28th, 2019 at 11:51 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2017


    Bob writes:
    Since you feel so strongly that legalized gambling is wrong, are you working to get casinos shut down? Btw, there are many examples of gambling in the Bible. There is no commandment in the Old or New Testament against gambling.

    KJ is a mental case: HE makes a $100K a year so he doesn't want casinos to operate because he doesn't like their morality picture?

    He who loves money shall never have enough. The foolishness of thinking wealth brings happiness! Ecclesiastes 5.10

    Some people even turned away from God because of their love for money, and as a result have pierced themselves with many sorrows. 1 Timothy 6:6-10

    ...And ended up ranting like some banchee queer on VCT.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2017


    KJ writes to Bob:
    I don't understand the labeling of people that goes on at VCT site. Especially when you don't know a person or all, or most of their views.

    I agree Bob. Why not just call them a troll and leave it at that? Seems to work for KJ.

    It is a form of demonizing people that don't agree with you. Bob21 seems to be a master.

    Bob has a college degree, excelled at debate, and it's part of his job. KJ has a GED, a bad temper, and doesn't have a job. Who would you bet on? Bob the Master Bater or KJ the Queertard.

    I mean if the casino industries business model is about gambling, then they don't need to cash checks. They are not a bank. Make their money from people gambling.

    Who cares? Of course, the lines wouldn't shorten. Okay, stop cashing checks.

    Getting a good job and a safe career is the safe path. APing for a living or really any kind of self employment is far away from the way they think.

    Hmmm. Let's see.
    A. Go to college, get a job with 6 figure steady income, make investments that go up in value - Rule of 72, have kids, raise a family .
    B. OR drop out of high school and become a monstrous liar on a forum and date the same sex several times over.

    That's a tough one Alex, I mean Axel. Let's go with A for $5,000.
    Last edited by Moses; May 31st, 2019 at 11:00 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2017

    Default Trip Reports

    I agree with Midwest Player. Excellent trip report! I always enjoy them and learn from them. Thanks!

    Bob, Bob, wait I got one more, BOB! What can you possibly enjoy and learn from a trip report. For one thing, no one ever loses on these trips. I mean if someone wants to write about a statue in Wendover. No harm - No foul. You're the expert in casino management. I just happen to be in them rather frequently. But someone coming in for 3 or 4 days on scholarship and leaving even puts the casino at a loss. Especially, if they paid for the flight. Sort of like a recruiting trip and then they sign with another school.

    Therefore, boasting of profits is like rubbing salt in the wound, and makes the everyday players job even more difficult. These so called APs expressing their disconcerting issues with casinos is sort of like a player having a problem with a coach. They can bench your ass real quick.

    Plus a casino spy, reading a forum, would have info right at their fingertips. I not saying that your are, but I am saying the line moved from even money to +105 with your comment.

    Do You Ask People to Not Smoke at the Blackjack Table

    Who the hell comes up with these topics for threads. This answer isn't No. It's Hell NO! Not unless you want your ass kicked. I can see KJ walking up to a table full of ploppies, wonging in, and then demanding everyone put out their cigars because KJ the Great has arrived. Some guy goes on vacation once a year and decides to light up a stogey when he is already about half lit himself. Then someone asks him to put out his expensive cigar. Oh, that's going to go over bi! What a cheesy thread! Are you ever actually IN a casino? It's a "mind your own friggin biz" world!

    Last edited by Moses; June 6th, 2019 at 10:02 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2017


    Bob writes:
    Something that didn’t make sense is when KC said he had to leave Vegas and could no longer play there since he was too widely known. I would think with all his disguises, he could have kept playing there for as long as he wanted.

    I figured that part was more of a plot device to justify his trip around America. It really showed the variance in the game as he went on a two month losing streak losing over $300,000 during this time.

    So let me get this straight. A guy loses $300K in two months, with many disguises, and gets banned? Shrewd. Let me have his PRO status! Sounds like they did him a favor.

    KJ goes zooming around on roller blades and in a tutu with tights, makes $110K in 5 weeks, and no one noticed?

    At any rate, it was a good movie.
    This movie for blackjack players is like the Exorcist for Christians.
    Last edited by Moses; June 6th, 2019 at 10:26 AM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2017

    Default Comments to other APs who appraoch "your" table?

    Gmass who reminds me of Bob writes:

    First-come / first-serve, right? Right.

    Ive twice made other APs who sit down at a table I'm already playing. At my local stores it can be tough to find seats at desirable tables, so I don't like to leave them when I get them. Might as well get in my car and drive home. As such I protect my territory like a llama in heat.

    You ever make coded statements or otherwise alert them that there's only room for one sheriff in your town, or at least let them know you're playing an AP game in hopes of shooing them away?

    My mantra has always been "it's on me." I have 4 categories of play. Win, Lose, Tie, Interruption. The interruption is a vital area. So I find the times when no one else is playing. IT might only be for 20 minutes. But that is 20 minutes I wouldn't have had without research and a daily plan. So, when someone new sits down to play, I give them the right of way. APs are fairly easy to identify. 1.) They usually buy in for at least 10 times the table minimum. 2.) They have cash and a look of someone about to camp out. There are many others instances where one has to wait it out to see where they are going. But waiting also means not moving on to the next location. It's a bit of a conundrum.

    Typically, one who has not spent a lot of time in a casino will expose his cash by whipping out a large bankroll or opening his wallet for all to see. An AP, generally already has the buy in amount in hand and exchanges it for the chips efficiently. Also, an AP playing at the table has a certain look as opposed to the NFLers. No For Long'ers.

    My goal is to find my best 20 sessions each week. Not hog one table. Sometimes leaving and finding another game is works out better.
    Last edited by Moses; June 11th, 2019 at 04:57 PM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2017

    Default Hi Bob

    Bob writes to Bosox:

    I came on this site to ask Moses a question about blackjack. That was my original motivation. Yes, I used a different handle on this site but that was to get a straight answer from Moses. Looking back on it, i probably didn’t need to do that. As you know, I don’t have a very good following on BJTF since I’m an independent thinker and don’t always agree with AP orthodoxy. I was worried that if I asked Moses my question with my dbs handle, Moses might not have given me the in depth answer he ended up giving me. Knowing Moses better now, I can see I was wrong.

    Yes, I’ve got into some heated debates on this site and others when I believe in something. Since most APs are liberals and I’m a conservative, I’m usually at odds with them. I’m sorry if you have a problem with people that think differently than you. That’s your problem, not mine. I’m different than you. I enjoy hearing viewpoints different than mine, even when I don’t agree with them.

    I noticed you're getting drilled again at BJTF. I have a tremendous respect for Freighter. Perhaps it's because we've spoken at length various times. He's never given me a reason to believe he is anything else than a straight shooter or the real deal. Most others leave a question mark in my mind as to their purpose and motivation. I'm sorry you felt the need to go to such extremes just to ask me a question.

    You are excellent at debate and I concede far smarter than me on many levels. But my purpose in even looking at a site is because of the name blackjack forum. I'm always working to improve and/or better understand my game. For instance, there are only 16 out of 52 cards that will break a 12. There are only 16 out of 48 cards that will not break 16. So why all the Standing on 12 and Hitting on 16? However, if one were to bring this up on a forum, the likes of a 21Forme would have a fit. Any question that doesn't fall in line with Don S book runs a high risk of getting slammed. Same thing with the 2. Why does it have value? Because some guy writing a book in 70s on effect of removal EOR said so?

    The difference between a 2 and a 7 is only .10. So we take the 2 from .38 all the way to 1 and drop the .28 on 7 to 0 and put up with KJ rants as to why one shouldn't even discuss anything other than HILO. I don't need to be on a forum to know about HILO and I don't care about ones feelings because of the variance it carries.
    Last edited by Moses; June 11th, 2019 at 09:43 AM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2017

    Default ...And baby makes Zee?

    Bosox, my reply was in reference to the post at hand. Zee made an excellent post, stating that he got to still play, while spreading 1-5, while another Bozo AP got kicked out after only one shoe, spreading 1-12. Zee also said this was a DD game, which was an important piece of information.

    People who “take the game seriously” should understand that spreading 1-12 is not a good idea on DD if you want to have any kind of longevity at a casino. Zee gave a classic example for why this is the case. And he ended his post with a “chuckle, chuckle”, which was a nice touch, illustrating how stupid this AP was.

    Bosox, it appears you are having the same problem that your idol, Freightman, is having, and that is staying on topic. Freightman went off on a lengthy rant about some bad plays Zee has made in the past, as if that was somehow relevant to the post at hand. For the record, it was not.

    You went on your own little rant about how I like Zee’s trip report, which also was not relevant to the topic at hand. Yes, I like Zee’s trip reports, but this has nothing to do with why I defended him in this thread.

    If it makes you feel better calling it “trolling” when someone defends an excellent post, then go for it. Being on these forums, I’ve come to find out in the AP world when someone doesn’t agree with someone else they usually label it as “trolling”. In the real world, it’s called having a different opinion. It’s what makes our country great. Freedom of speech, and being able to express our opinions, even when they might be different than someone else’s.

    This is an area where I would enjoy a healthy debate with you on a site. I've caught glimpses in the past where Zee is far smarter than he lets on. I'm not quite sure this is even a real person. IF he is real, he has a horrible work ethic. His strategic process is that of a hunting dog who couldn't find his own food dish.

    Therefore, his trip reports must be rendered as utter BS. A person like this making any money in a casino is purely coincidental and probably accidental.

    I hate the word "troll" as an excuse for someone presenting another side. Maybe someone should come up with a word like "Gawd" for those who believe their word is the gospel. So a successful forum is pretty much made up of trolls and gawds which is an utter waste of time. The game is about winning and being allowed to play. Norm's products will do this for a person willing to invest the time. But say that on a forum? You're a troll...which makes no sense to me because it's HIS forum for gawds sake..

    we have Bosox defending Freightman no matter what he says since we all know Freightman is Bosox’s hero.

    Bosox is a bandwagon jumper. KJ could say it's okay to shit in the chip tray at a casino and Bosox would defend him. Ironic, Freighter is not a KJ supporter in the least.
    Last edited by Moses; June 11th, 2019 at 04:48 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2017


    Bob writes:
    Freightman, I will say that your level of comebacks are about 3 levels above Bosox. If you’re going to keep Bosox as your partner, you need to work with him on his material.

    Freight replies:
    Now, for an independent evaluation of today’s individual performances, I’ll consult The *******.

    You're going to have to get up pretty early in the morning to get one up on Freighter. The evaluation of today's performance is just like any other day. Freighter is the old bull. Bob is the young bull. The old bull is sitting under a shade tree. The young bull says "let's run down and boink one of dem dar cows."

    The old bull replies "naw, let's stroll down and boink 'em all.

    Freighter writes; Moses, thank you for your observations.

    You're welcome Freighter.
    Last edited by Moses; June 11th, 2019 at 05:17 PM.

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