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Thread: 3-Dummies v KJderman What is wrong with this picture?

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    Default 3-Dummies v KJderman What is wrong with this picture?

    We have T3 on one side promoting and professing a complex strategy for shoe games. Yes, KJ is correct as HILO works as good as anything over the course of 312 cards.

    Now we have KJ's panties in a bunch because he thinks he is being cheated on pitch games. But he won't do anything about it other than complain on forums and will screw it up for those who excel in the pitch games. He claims nothing can be done and HILO is the answer. Wrong! Column counts work. IT's just that those who employ it don't choose to broadcast it on forums to the KJs of the world the can't comprehend it anyway.

    If these two switched games then they might have a point. However, both continue to push square pegs into round holes. So they argue back and forth like a couple of 10 year old girls...and we all know KJ is 12.
    Last edited by Moses; August 12th, 2018 at 06:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    We have T3 on one side promoting and professing a complex strategy for shoe games. Yes, KJ is correct as HILO works as good as anything over the course of 312 cards.

    Now we have KJ's panties in a bunch because he thinks he is being cheated on pitch games. But he won't do anything about it other than complain on forums and will screw it up for those who excel in the pitch games. He claims nothing can be done and HILO is the answer. Wrong! Column counts work. IT's just that those who employ it don't choose to broadcast it on forums to the KJs of the world the can't comprehend it anyway.

    If these two switched games then they might have a point. However, both continue to push square pegs into round holes. So they argue back and forth like a couple of 10 year old girls...and we all know KJ is 12.
    If KJ were 12, Tthree Dummy would be 5.
    After over 10000 BS bragging posts, it turns out that T3 doesn't even play BJ! What a damn joke, LOL!
    T3 is no threat to any casino because he spends most of his time bragging on BTF.
    T3: Talk The Talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fat_bumblebee View Post
    If KJ were 12, Tthree Dummy would be 5.
    You clearly have strong math skills.

    Identifying those compositions is good, but your method is incapable of identifying them although you think it does. Again, grouping 7s and 9s together is weak no matter how long your post is.

    psyduck writes ^:

    Moses replies: Good point. Tarzan groups the 6 and 9 together which is why it fairs only slightly better than Hi Opt II. If you assign a count to a tag value and then break it down to a single number, I don't see how T3 is getting bins out of it. Hence, you still have to trust that number. The only way you are going to get deck composition is to count is terms of deck composition. No? Or maintain two different counts. One for PE and one for BC.







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    The 8 has absolutely no betting value to the game whatsoever. And the fact that the 7 is slightly plus while the 9 is slightly minus is uninteresting, because Ralph Stricker's Silver Fox count is weaker than Hi-Lo and yet reckons both the 7 and the 9.

    The problem with Three is that he says, fives times a day, that he has spoken on this subject for the last time, and then he writes about it ten more times. It would be quite wonderful if he simply STOPPED once and for all. If it isn't his intention to prove to us how smart he is, then the simplest way to do that is to be quiet.

    Don

    Moses replies: Actually Silver Fox outperforms HiLO in the pitch games according to sims. Especially, when you include 14vs10 in your indices. The single most important item one can to do increase SCORE on sims is check the insurance box. Yes, more work. But a helluva lot less complicated than what T3 is suggesting. Don is spot on about the 8. Giving it even a 1/2 point credit will punish SCORE severely in a SIM.

    The problem is assigning the 2-7s the same value. For example, A 2-3-4 will only get you to 16,17,18 from 14. But a 5-6-7 will get you to 19-20-21. On 16, a 2-3-4 gets to 18-19-20 and 21 with 5 but busts on 6-7. So you MUST look at the two groups individually in pitch games. I've read T3s lengthy posts and I still don't know what he is talking about. IT seems he is trying to make Hi Opt II seem like more than it is which makes me think those windy posts are Flash with a snoot full. Tarzan has the right idea but the columns are not aligned properly. Maybe he is Flash without a snoot full.

    I'd like to meet T3/Tarzan someday. Heck, maybe I have and didn't realize it at the time.


    Last edited by Moses; August 13th, 2018 at 10:28 AM.

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    I am working on a way to have a short term downswings statistic. So far every expert says there is no such statistic, so I will have to invent something. Without that there is no way to show what I am talking about through sims. You can't even seem to understand that. If you were an expert you would know that you are asking for something that hasn't been invented yet.

    T3 writes ^:

    Moses replies: I can't put a number to it either. But I know it works better than any conventional method - BY FAR.

    The 8 is silent or worth 0. Therefore, our single deck composition is 48 cards. Before a card is dealt we have 9-10-As 50% 5-6-7s 25% and 2-3-4s 25%. Suppose 12 of the 9-10-As are played and 2 Aces still remain. 8 of the 5-6-7s are played and 8 of the 2-3-4s are played. Your deck composition is 60% 9-As remaining and 20% of each of the other 2 columns remain. That's value because it is far better than the original deck composition.

    Now suppose 10 567s are played and only 6 234s are played. A conventional method indicates a value. But a column count indicates a deck that is also rich in 2-4s. Therefore, not a strong value. Now, if you pass on this hand (and you should) then you've shown discipline and patience. Also, you have the EITS scratching their heads as to why you didn't bet large. So we are back to my saying of "it's not about how hard you can swat, but rather about how well you can duck."

    T3, I think you already know this? But I don't understand your EXTREME desire to tell the world. By the time you are through generalizing, it looks and smells like bullshit anyway. No? Man...you really get a bunch of shit dumped on you. Why? I'm curious. Is it to generate more forum posts? I look at everything from a single deck standpoint first, then simply multiply my workload by the number of decks. Hey, I'll be the first to admit I couldn't do this over 6 decks. Nor would I want to because there is easier money to be made.

    But I have to admit you're an interesting person. When did winning stop being enough?










    Last edited by Moses; August 13th, 2018 at 11:40 AM.

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    Does anyone really take anything Moses or Tarzan say seriously? LOL

    Rebecca writes ^:

    The ones that understand the game do. Of course they are the ones that understand what they are talking about. The pug and play experts only know how to use the formula someone else gave them. Being able to follow a recipe doesn't make you a master chef. It makes you a cook.

    T3 writes ^:


    Moses replies; Thanks T3: I'm a player, not a coach, not a teacher, and it's for damn sure I'm not on a "save the newbies" crusade. Does Tarzan care what a newbie thinks? Probably not. But he his a brilliant guy and the ultimate gamer.

    I've taken ways to improve my game from Tarzan, T3, Freighter, and Bosox...and of course Don S. I can see where Tarzan could improve his game. Not that he needs my help. But I cannot describe how he would go about doing it over 6 decks. 2? Yes.

    Plus if he is laughing all the way to the bank, then what the hell? But we are all winners and extremely competitive.


    Sometimes it might come to me during a walk or during a 3am whiz. Point is, it comes and wouldn't without the bouncing of ideas. That's why the call it a FO rum to make us MO better. No?



    To be honest I'd rather be a cook than a crook. Its safer.
    Hell & Back writes ^:

    Moses replies; Really. I've seen cooks burn their damn hands on a hot stove. A crook just puts his forefinger in the back of your skull.

    A crook might rob your house. A cook might burn it to the ground.







    Last edited by Moses; August 13th, 2018 at 05:20 PM.

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    You seem to have an infinite capacity, somewhat like a person with Alzheimer's, to repeat the same thing over and over again and think that you are saying it for the first time. It's one of the strangest traits I've ever seen in an otherwise intelligent person.

    Don writes to T3 ^:

    Moses replies: Interesting observation Don. There are a number of gamblers I've met that tend to repeat themselves over and over on short term topics. Yet some are like walking Googles on long term topics. For instance, did you know your Red Sox were the first team to hit 50 games over .500 since 1946? The 80-80 series with Baltimore was a first in years.

    I'm very patient with the guys as I figure they've already been through enough. But other guys will say STFU, you just repeated yourself for like the 6th time in a row. Then they move on to another topic and repeat the process.

    Ohhh, you mean the same Tarzan Sim that showed no improvement over Hi Opt w/Ace side count LOL. Not to mention Halves outperforms Hi Opt II w/Ace side count as well. AGAIN, ive only been speaking about SHOE GAMES, not PITCH. Having all that added information is much more beneficial in a deeply dealt pitch game as ive been saying all these years.

    ZenKing writes;

    Moses writes: You are a very bright young guy IMO. Personally, I think Tarzan would fair far better by tweaking some columns. But then again, you'd know far more about shoe games than me. Yes, bring all horses to a deely dealt pitch game and play as though you own cattle on both sides of the river.


    Last edited by Moses; August 13th, 2018 at 07:43 PM.

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    The 7 was a neutral card. If you understand what Tarzan or Moses did with the column counts this is the same thing but different. Knowing there is a main count RC of +5 for your level 2 count and that there has been 20 aces seen and that you have seen 25 neutral cards in a 6 deck shoe with 1 deck left, the count know that you expect to have 4 of each rank left. But there are 12 aces left and combining the ranks of 8 and 9 (expecting 8 left) that there are 7 left. That leaves 41 cards with a RC of +15. The average low card is tagged at +1.25 and the T is tagged at -2 to get the +5 RC. That defines a pretty specific family of deck compositions with an expected density of T's that has far less of a range around that average. You don't even need to use any of the information because it has already been figured out in advance, you just need to know what sub-bin you are in. That information tells you your bet and play with no need for adjustments. You just make the bet and play for that bin. That is much faster than the way a traditional counter would use the side count information.
    T3 writes ^:


    Moses replies: Okay T3. Now, I'm catching a bit of the wave you're on. Bare in mind I'm not a shoer. So you are counting the low cards 2-7 as 1.25? That can't be easy. I assume you are counting the 89s collectively as opposed to individually? And you are side counting the Ace at what Tag value?

    Whups. You lost me again. If you've seen 20 Aces, then only 4 can remain, no? You said 12. You lost me on sub-bin? I assume it's a correlation to the ratio of 10-As vs cards remaining?

    T3. I don't mean to criticize. In fact I admire your work ethic and efforts. A successful singer has knows his audience. Now consider me, someone who has been playing column counts since the mid 80s. I'm confused. The conventional heads must be swimming. What does Tarzan say? Personally, I'd suggest networking off line with those who might be able to understand an offer an opinion.

    FWIW, people hate the feeling of bewilderment. That's what you are doing to folks which is making them feel less significant whether you realize or not. Sing your song over and over and over before you ever take it on stage. And then, there has to be a correlation. Otherwise, it's just loud clanky noise.
    Last edited by Moses; August 13th, 2018 at 09:28 PM.

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    And Moss and Tarzan think my two count with significant count overlap method is beyond them. But I am confident they could do it with enough practice even though they aren't. I can keep two side counts and the main count but adding another side count, as the column counts do, seems harder by an order of magnitude to me.
    T3 writes:

    Moses writes: I'm following along from blackjack info. My friend Tater is banned and the name Moses is already used. So if I came on under another name the juvy's would focus on that aspect...and I'd probably just get banned again.

    I read the underlined items above as a contradiction in terms. Please clarify.

    It's a monumental task trying to find value in the course of 312 cards. Personally, I don't think you've found it just yet? Because when you do, it won't matter what anyone else thinks. For me, it was like water skiing. I just couldn't get up. I'm a good athlete, so it was frustrating to see lesser athletes pop right up and zoom around the lake. I'd just about get up and then I'd tumble. Man, would I tumble. Probably lucky I didn't kill myself. Then someone yelled from the boat "tuck your toes." Somehow I popped right up and the rest is history.

    Perhaps the reason you are writing so much about this is you haven't quite yet figured a way to tuck your toes?

    Column counting is the way I taught myself to play the game. I read Thorpes book. Then used his same concept for the mid's 6-9s and lows 2-5s. Now, as the casinos took away rules, pen, and bet spread, I had to find ways to improve in order to make the game worth my time. I was already catching shit from family about spending too much time at a blackjack table.

    I probably pestered poor Don S. to death. I knew his concepts were sound but I also sensed he had a trememous work ethic. For instance, who writes 3 books? Now to mention each one with such indepth analysis and filled with data. But the bigger picture for me was to understand how he arrived at his conclusions. The ill 18 for instance. Why not 19, or 21 to make it like the game? So as I drudged through my own research I began to see what he was seeing and how he arrived at certain decisions based on tons of data. It was sort of fascinating to watch it come together. Don't kid yourself. I took a ton of shit from Kelly because all I wanted to do was study. She thought I must have been online with a woman or something. lol

    So the "tuck your toes" moment in blackjack didn't come from the ratio of 10-A to 2-7s. It came from the ratio of 2-4s to 5-7s.

    Hell no, people aren't going to win with a system that is just handed to them. You've got to feel it. The main difference between us and them is the way we see the cards. The difference between you, me, and Tarzan is we each see the cards with a different twist.

    Many of the posters turn this into a congeniality contest. Who likes you and who you know isn't going to do shit for you at the table. So if I get banned? Fuck it. I don't care because this is about winning. And winning isn't all that easy against on opponent that can say "Uncle" at any time.

    Last edited by Moses; August 14th, 2018 at 09:48 AM.

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    Slightly ironic considering the first thing you ever said to me was "I'm 10 times the counter you are."

    John Carver writes to ZenKing ^:

    Moses replies: Norm take note. This is where personal attacks begin. It has nothing to do with nothing, a/k/a Flash. Ironic, the great counter has 3 consecutive threads about how the casinos are screwing him, God hates him, his weiner is too small, etc etc.
    Adapt and overcome or don't play. Is there really any other options?


    102 and counting. Or is it 103? May have missed one. You're incorrigible, in the literal sense of someone whom it is impossible to correct.

    Don to T3

    Moses replies: Look at the bright side Don. At least T3 is generating some interests and posts on that site. It wasn't too long ago you wrote to inquire if they were still around. This too shall pass.




    Last edited by Moses; August 14th, 2018 at 12:13 PM.

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