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Thread: The Moses Column Count

  1. #1
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    Default The Moses Column Count

    My column count is different from other approaches...
    It's 10s 8-9s 5-7s 2-4s. Giving consideration to EOR total sum of tags for 2-4s is nearly the same as 5-7s.

    As for Insurance? It's perfect. Take your number of 10s played x 2 plus 4. The correlation will always be 33%. So if 10 tens are played then 24 non tens must be played for 33%. The idea is to always have the best matchups for every hand. Also, to bet when the deck is rich in 10-A. But, more importantly, not bet when the deck is more rich in another column.

    I will stop here. If anyone is interested I will start a new thread. To me, forum discussions are like sitting around a table in the sportsbook bouncing idea's over a couple of beers. Im not trying to say Im any better (or worse) than anything one else. But we all have one common denominator which is winning.

    For this, my thirst is unquenchable.
    Last edited by DDutton; September 12th, 2017 at 03:06 PM. Reason: format new thread

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Lady Tthree is the dealer, examine her hands ...


    If those are indeed T3's hands and fingers shuffling that deck I'd say T3 needs to go back to dealer school. Absolutely horrible! Not the worst I've seen sitting around a table but still embarrassing. With the way T3 riffles you better watch your ass in a poker game, I wouldn't doubt anyone of accusing T3 of being a poker cheat by getting an unnatural peak at the cards.
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; September 9th, 2017 at 09:01 PM.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Impressive video for sure. My column count is slightly different. It's 10s 8-9s 5-7s 2-4s. Giving consideration to EOR total sum of tags for 2-4s is nearly the same as 5-7s.As for Insurance? It's perfect. Take your number of 10s played x 2 plus 4. The correlation will always be 33%. So if 10 tens are played then 24 non tens must be played for 33%. The idea is to always have the best matchups for every hand. Also, to bet when the deck is rich in 10-A. But, more importantly, not bet when the deck is more rich in another column. I will stop here. If anyone is interested I will start a new thread. To me, forum discussions are like sitting around a table in the sportsbook bouncing idea's over a couple of beers. Im not trying to say Im any better (or worse) than anything one else. But we all have one common denominator which is winning. For this, my thirst is unquenchable.
    There are a few important lessons that people can learn from this video. Number one is do not mimic the dealers shuffling procedure. If that is T3... So how did you come up with the column count that you are using Moses? Why?
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; September 10th, 2017 at 02:55 AM.

  4. #4
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    At the start of a shoe, everyone knows how many cards are there in each rank. So what!
    AP: Advanced Ploppy.

    After over 10000 BS bragging posts, it turns out that T3 doesn't even play BJ! What a damn joke, LOL!

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    To be honest, I didn't know there was another way. The only book I read was Thorp - Beat the Dealer back in the mid 80s. I picked up on his idea regarding ratios and his ten count. Then, I reversed it for the lows 2-5s and middles 6-9s. Aces on fingers. I revised it to a 4 column count by splitting the 89s and 67s. This gives more flexibilty and matchups for most all hands. Taking EOR into consideration I revised again to 2-4s 5-7s 8-9s tens.

    I will always know how many are played and thus how many remain. The mind is like a cupboard. Suppose you are unloading a dishwasher. You have 16 plates 8 cups 12 bowls and 12 glasses. So they either in the dishwasher or the cupboard. Samething in blackjack. They are either in the deck or the discard tray. The Aces are like pots and pans. If all 4 are in the dishwasher, it's a liile hard to cook. If they are in the cupboard it's time to cook. lol

    I can only do this on two decks. Tarzan reduces the lowest column to zero which allows him to cover 6 or 8 decks.

    A single deck only has 6 or 7 rounds straight up. Suppose you go to a club and meet that many ladies. Each one you have to remember that last 4 digits of her phone number. Now when you see one that is hotter, you get her number and forget the other one. Samething in blackjack except now you are looking at deck composition as opposed to the hotties body composition. In other words, you invest more when all the right parts are in the right places.
    Last edited by Moses; September 10th, 2017 at 01:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fat_bumblebee View Post
    At the start of a shoe, everyone knows how many cards are there in each rank. So what!
    Hello FB. Definately enjoyed reading some of your posts. Yes, at the start everything is equal. As a value investor, we want the deck composition to grow with Aces and tens. But at the same we don't the other columns to excced their original value.

    Excluding Aces, the deck compositios original value is 33% tens 33% 6-9s. 33% 2-5s. A 40-30-30 is a great deck composition. But a 40-20-40 is not because it's equally rich in low and high cards. A 40- 40-20 is equally rich in middle and highs. This isn't going to be visible in a Hi Lo.

    No. Im not going to be like Flash and say it's a weak count or anything like that. Im no better or worse than anyone else. I just enjoy talking about the game. Just some guys sitting around a table talking blackjack over a couple of beers.

    Evidently, Flash and T3 had too much because it's one long never ending pissing contest with them.
    Last edited by Moses; September 10th, 2017 at 01:26 AM.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    To be honest, I didn't know there was another way. The only book I read was Thorp - Beat the Dealer back in the mid 80s. I picked up on his idea regarding ratios and his ten count. Then, I reversed it for the lows 2-5s and middles 6-9s. Aces on fingers. I revised it to a 4 column count by splitting the 89s and 67s. This gives more flexibilty and matchups for most all hands. Taking EOR into consideration I revised again to 2-4s 5-7s 8-9s tens.

    I will always know how many are played and thus how many remain. The mind is like a cupboard. Suppose you are unloading a dishwasher. You have 16 plates 8 cups 12 bowls and 12 glasses. So they either in the dishwasher or the cupboard. Samething in blackjack. They are either in the deck or the discard tray. The Aces are like pots and pans. If all 4 are in the dishwasher, it's a liile hard to cook. If they are in the cupboard it's time to cook. lol

    I can only do this on two decks. Tarzan reduces the lowest column to zero which allows him to cover 6 or 8 decks.

    A single deck only has 6 or 7 rounds straight up. Suppose you go to a club and meet that many ladies. Each one you have to remember that last 4 digits of her phone number. Now when you see one that is hotter, you get her number and forget the other one. Same thing in blackjack except now you are looking at deck composition as opposed to the hotties body composition. In other words, you invest more when all the right parts are in the right places.
    Even though I know I'm late to the party Beat The Dealer is a wonderful read. I thought Thorp wrote a very informative book regarding a casino game. There's more than one way to skin a cat. It's funny and interesting to see how everyone works their way through a deck. Considering internet videos, flipping seems to be the preferred method among many people. You have an interesting approach to the game. It seems like you have a 5 column count going if you account for the Aces considering your EOR startegy. So you've been playing this way since the 80's? Is SD and DD blackjack all you play?

    It seems like it would be difficult to play your strategy in such a manner. What kind of mindset do you have when your counting the cards in such a way? Do you ever play any unbalanced or balanced counting strategies if you want to play 6 or 8 decks and stretch things out a bit?
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; September 10th, 2017 at 03:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Excluding Aces, the deck compositios original value is 33% tens 33% 6-9s. 33% 2-5s. A 40-30-30 is a great deck composition. But a 40-20-40 is not because it's equally rich in low and high cards. A 40- 40-20 is equally rich in middle and highs. This isn't going to be visible in a Hi Lo.
    I do understand the concept of the column count. I just don't believe its power as claimed by some. 2-5 in one group and tens in another are fine. Ace is side counted is good too. But grouping 6-9 in one is just a convenience (another four card group). 6 and 7 behave more like small cards especially 6. 9 behaves as a big card. Say you find there are more cards in the 6-9 group, you don't know if it is because of more 6/7 or more 9. More 6-7 or 9 has opposite effect.
    Last edited by fat_bumblebee; September 10th, 2017 at 11:06 AM.
    AP: Advanced Ploppy.

    After over 10000 BS bragging posts, it turns out that T3 doesn't even play BJ! What a damn joke, LOL!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by fat_bumblebee View Post
    I do understand the concept of the column count. I just don't believe its power as claimed by some. 2-5 in one group and tens in another are fine. Ace is side counted is good too. But grouping 6-9 in one is just a convenience (another four card group). 6 and 7 behave more like small cards especially 6. 9 behaves as a big card. Say you find there are more cards in the 6-9 group, you don't know if it is because of more 6/7 or more 9. More 6-7 or 9 has opposite effect.
    Good point. I'd be more inclined to agree with you than disagree. I can't SIM a column count, so I can't speak to a betterment in absolute terms. For me, it's peace of mind. Note Ive revised my column alignments for many of the reasons you just mentioned.

    In single deck or double deck. All the gyrations and side counts, it's more practical just to remember the cards. Stretching out to 6 decks, Wong Halves and perfect insurance is a logical consideration.

    All the indices are the same as Hi Lo. So if you grow weary you have some options.
    Last edited by Moses; September 10th, 2017 at 03:16 PM.

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    Blitzer. I took about 15 years off when raising my family. Plus I was getting banned nearly everywhere with my overly aggressive style. I didn't realize we weren't suppose to win.

    My mindset is to get in, get paid, get out asap. Don't put a hurtin on them because you lose if they submit. Don't let them put a hurtin on you because they can control your comebacks.

    I focus on a goal of 20 short sessions a week in a rotation. But it has to be my game and my pen. Everyone has an "oh yes" amount that constitutes a win. Everyone has an "aw fuck" amount that constitutes a loss. Just be sure your "oh yes" does not exceed the pits "aw fuck."

    On average, I'm going to win 60% of my sessions and lose 30%. The other 10% is for games that go the distance of 100ish hands or get interrupted by a rush of players to the table.

    I'm not a robot. If I get 6 "aw fucks" a week and play 50 weeks a year. That's 300 "aw fucks" a year. I wouldn't say any losses are easy. But the most difficult are the ones that were almost a win and then just one misplaced card turns it into a loss. I see nothing wrong with taking your timeouts. If you get angry, get rid of it before you play again.

    If I lose it's because I've beat myself or they beat me at my best. I play single deck straight up. I could do the samething with double deck. My "shoe" interest is strictly for my feet.

    I guess it is actually a 5 column count. But 4 numbers are revolving in my head. In essence, it's basic math done really fast. The Aces on my fingers are 1 is the thumb touching the forefinger underneath. The 2 is hook em horms relaxed sign. 3 is A okay. 4 is closed fist which means squash this deck and start again. For two decks? Switch hands at 5.

    I employ a couple of conventional counts. They derived from the best SCORES with CV Data. Sometimes I change things up to fight boredom. A chatty dealer with a schrill voice and a bad song in the background can be annoying. So slow down. But don't get caught up in the pace of Johhny B Goode. Remember you are in control. Dealer can't do shit without your signal.
    Last edited by Moses; September 10th, 2017 at 04:08 PM.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Blitzer. I took about 15 years off when raising my family. Plus I was getting banned nearly everywhere with my overly aggressive style. I didn't realize we weren't suppose to win.

    My mindset is to get in, get paid, get out asap. Don't put a hurtin on them because you lose if they submit. Don't let them put a hurtin on you because they can control your comebacks.

    I focus on a goal of 20 short sessions a week in a rotation. But it has to be my game and my pen. Everyone has an "oh yes" amount that constitutes a win. Everyone has an "aw fuck" amount that constitutes a loss. Just be sure your "oh yes" does not exceed the pits "aw fuck."

    On average, I'm going to win 60% of my sessions and lose 30%. The other 10% is for games that go the distance of 100ish hands or get interrupted by a rush of players to the table.

    I'm not a robot. If I get 6 "aw fucks" a week and play 50 weeks a year. That's 300 "aw fucks" a year. I wouldn't say any losses are easy. But the most difficult are the ones that were almost a win and then just one misplaced card turns it into a loss. I see nothing wrong with taking your timeouts. If you get angry, get rid of it before you play again.

    If I lose it's because I've beat myself or they beat me at my best. I play single deck straight up. I could do the samething with double deck. My "shoe" interest is strictly for my feet.

    I guess it is actually a 5 column count. But 4 numbers are revolving in my head. In essence, it's basic math done really fast. The Aces on my fingers are 1 is the thumb touching the forefinger underneath. The 2 is hook em horms relaxed sign. 3 is A okay. 4 is closed fist which means squash this deck and start again. For two decks? Switch hands at 5.

    I employ a couple of conventional counts. They derived from the best SCORES with CV Data. Sometimes I change things up to fight boredom. A chatty dealer with a schrill voice and a bad song in the background can be annoying. So slow down. But don't get caught up in the pace of Johhny B Goode. Remember you are in control. Dealer can't do shit without your signal.
    Players only play to win, but of course they can win or lose. Single deck games are fun to play, I like double deck games to. I like the dealing differences between pitch games and shoe games which provides a different challenge within the game of blackjack itself.

    With your counting technique, how many seconds does it take you to accurately count a single deck of cards by categorizing them as fast as you can in your mind?



    Full single deck totals with you count would look like this in your mind visualization... [12] [12] [8] [16] [4] Aces side counted with no positive or negative cards. How long did you have to train your brain in such a manner that you finally got it down pat?
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; September 11th, 2017 at 01:50 PM.

  12. #12
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    Blitzer. I've never counted down a deck with a timer. I just know a dealer has never beat me. Now a yapping dealer makes the game less fun. So I slow the game to a crawl if necessary. There have been rare occasions when I stopped playing and just visited with the yackity dealer. The get replaced pdq. lol

    My eyes see the categories as 10s, 89s, 57s, 24s. The time was learning to put them into a different category. For me, it was about 20 sessions on Verite. But I'd say 10k hands for the person not familiar to column counting. It's not so much learning the new as it is forgetting the old. You've a long time training your brain to think and see cards a certain way. Then when you change, it's sort of a boomerang effect.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Blitzer. I've never counted down a deck with a timer. I just know a dealer has never beat me. Now a yapping dealer makes the game less fun. So I slow the game to a crawl if necessary. There have been rare occasions when I stopped playing and just visited with the yackity dealer. The get replaced pdq. lol

    My eyes see the categories as 10s, 89s, 57s, 24s. The time was learning to put them into a different category. For me, it was about 20 sessions on Verite. But I'd say 10k hands for the person not familiar to column counting. It's not so much learning the new as it is forgetting the old. You've a long time training your brain to think and see cards a certain way. Then when you change, it's sort of a boomerang effect.

    I don't use a clock or a timer to count down decks anymore either. I've managed to lose the count a time or two in the casino, mainly from buzzing to hard. I even lose the count sometimes when I'm counting down a deck at the house practicing. I can tell you that I am more efficient and faster at counting than many of the people I see in these online blackjack videos using traditional counting strategies, at least that's what I think.

    So since you see the categories with your strategy as 10s, 89s, 57s, 24s in your mind, do you do so because it is easier for you to track the column which will usually have the highest number on the left side? Kind of like a reverse order numerically by rank.

    I read the cards as a number line which is one way to practice for speed and accuracy....

    2c3c10c4c8cJc5cQc6c7c9cKcAc2d3d10d4d8dJd5dQd6d7d9d KdAd2h3h10h4h8hJh5hQh6h7h9hKhAh2s3s10s4s8sJs5sQs6s 7s9sKsAs

    that's UAPC from left to right in a balanced/canceling form from 2-10, 4-J, 5-Q, 6-K per suit, or it is whatever counting strategy anyone wants to employ on it depending on how it is read. If there was a computer program that could randomize the ordering and allow for adjusting the speed for up to 8 decks displaying a number line with ample spacing in between cards it would be a good way to practice without even touching cards. But instead of putting the card index value with the letter of the suit, a symbol of the suit would be better as it appears on a playing card. When jumping between counting strategies from a traditional standpoint the boomerang effect is nullified and negated depending on the counters ability to transform. Becoming proficient with counting strategies from level 1-3 should be attainable for every player within only a few minutes (especially level 1), hours, or half a day by relentlessly cramming a randomized number line in someone's head over and over again. At least I think it should be. Jumping to a type of column count would be vastly different and difficult because a player would have to train their brain in a different manner.
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; September 12th, 2017 at 03:28 AM.

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    Ive heard some great things about UAPC. Sort of a hidden secret.

    I'd never really thought why I count from left to right with 10s listed first. The 10s are the center point of the count. There are 16 cards with that value. For DD on 11 you can combined the 89s with 10s vs A-7 . You have perfect insurance. 10s played x 2 plus 4 is the formula to determine how many other cards must be played to equal a deck composition of 33% tens remaining. 10s played x 1.5 plus 12 will always put you at or near 40%. If 20 more non tens are played than 10s, you know the deck composition has to be 50% 10s. You can combine the 10s-89s vs 27s to get a great matchup look at 14 vs 2,3,10,A.
    You can combine A-10s vs 5-9s to get a great matchup look at 12,13 vs 2,3,4.

    Also, if 12 more non A-tens are played than A-10s you know the deck composition is at least 50% A-10s. The is the best matchup. According to CV Data, it wins 53.60% of hands. But Im not sure if this includes Double Down and Insurance. Initially Norm said it did. Now he says it does not. Of course, you wouldn't bet large if the deck was exhausted of Aces. CV Data doesn't compensate for this occurrence. So the percentage is even better. The problem is this only occurs 2% of the time.

    I was able to set all my matchups with CV Data. But cannot run a Sim to provide a SCORE. They key is flexibility.
    Last edited by Moses; September 12th, 2017 at 07:35 AM.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Ive heard some great things about UAPC. Sort of a hidden secret.

    I'd never really thought why I count from left to right with 10s listed first. The 10s are the center point of the count. There are 16 cards with that value. For DD on 11 you can combined the 89s with 10s vs A-7 . You have perfect insurance. 10s played x 2 plus 4 is the formula to determine how many other cards must be played to equal a deck composition of 33% tens remaining. 10s played x 1.5 plus 12 will always put you at or near 40%. If 20 more non tens are played than 10s, you know the deck composition has to be 50% 10s. You can combine the 10s-89s vs 27s to get a great matchup look at 14 vs 2,3,10,A.
    You can combine A-10s vs 5-9s to get a great matchup look at 12,13 vs 2,3,4.

    Also, if 12 more non A-tens are played than A-10s you know the deck composition is at least 50% A-10s. The is the best matchup. According to CV Data, it wins 53.60% of hands. But Im not sure if this includes Double Down and Insurance. Initially Norm said it did. Now he says it does not. Of course, you wouldn't bet large if the deck was exhausted of Aces. CV Data doesn't compensate for this occurrence. So the percentage is even better. The problem is this only occurs 2% of the time.

    I was able to set all my matchups with CV Data. But cannot run a Sim to provide a SCORE. They key is flexibility.
    UAPC is a good counting strategy and just as easy as a level 1 counting strategy depending on how well a counter is able to transition thru cancellations throughout a deck or decks by reading the cards. I think Uston modeled it after level 4 RAPC as I do see similarities. The way a lot of these flippers flip their way thru the deck, UAPC wasn't designed to be counted in such a manner for practice and speed, it never was.

    I suppose I could understand why the tens are important in a SD game with your column count. Within a few rounds of play I could see how if ten 10's got played out, there would only be 6 remaining which more than likely wouldn't represent the most favorable of situations. So what goes thru your mind when your playing a SD game and your about halfway from reaching the cut card and lets say eight 10's have been played along with 2 Aces? I don't totally understand your math as it pertains to your column count so I'm not going to comment there.
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; September 12th, 2017 at 03:02 PM.

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