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Thread: BJ Question: A/10 Frequency and Card Readers?

  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDoe View Post
    In almost all casinos, dealers don't know the hole card, only if it's a ten or not (if ace up), or an ace or not (if ten up). That's why they have a little photodetector or mirror, rather than looking manually. It eliminates this play entirely. Once they know it's too late to do anything about it anyhow.

    It's been a while but if I remember right (from Beyond Counting), the edge from knowing the HC when an ace is up is not very valuable (unless you can still buy insurance!) If you know the HC when a ten is up, it's much better, at around 2-3% advantage off the top (with "reasonable" playing and surrender available), then you can count against this to adjust your bet if you like. Of course, knowing the HC all the time is pure gold..!
    Really John Doe? I thought when the dealer checked the hole card whenever they have an Ace or Face showing that they would know the value of any card once they check for the Blackjack. So your saying that once the dealer checks for the blackjack that they cannot tell whether the card value is 2 thru 9? So the card reader can only detect Aces and Faces, is that correct? Knowing the HC info when the dealer has a ten up card is primarily what I'm getting at from a dealers perspective since I have never been a dealer or have never talked to a Blackjack dealer on how the card reader works.
    So basically, if the dealer has a ten up card showing they could only relay to a potential accomplice that they either have a ten in the hole or an unknown card value that is 2 thru 9 if there is no Blackjack, is there still an edge to be had under those circumstances? That would be a way of protecting the game from a compromised dealer. But if the dealer knows they don't have a ten in the hole with a ten showing then the dealer or player would have to determine whether the dealers hand is pat with a 7,8, or 9.
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; September 20th, 2016 at 12:23 PM.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    Really John Doe? I thought when the dealer checked the hole card whenever they have an Ace or Face showing that they would know the value of any card once they check for the Blackjack. So your saying that once the dealer checks for the blackjack that they cannot tell whether the card value is 2 thru 9? So the card reader can only detect Aces and Faces, is that correct? Knowing the HC info when the dealer has a ten up card is primarily what I'm getting at from a dealers perspective since I have never been a dealer or have never talked to a Blackjack dealer on how the card reader works.
    So basically, if the dealer has a ten up card showing they could only relay to a potential accomplice that they either have a ten in the hole or an unknown card value that is 2 thru 9 if there is no Blackjack, is there still an edge to be had under those circumstances? That would be a way of protecting the game from a compromised dealer. But if the dealer knows they don't have a ten in the hole with a ten showing then the dealer or player would have to determine whether the dealers hand is pat with a 7,8, or 9.
    With modern peeking devices they only know if it's a blackjack or not. No other information is given to the dealer.

    The dealer can't even know if it's a ten in the hole if a ten is showing. They use a different method for checking under an ace or ten, such as orienting the cards differently (straight for 10, sideways for A), or using a different button to check for blackjack.

    But in all cases, all the information they have is whether it is a blackjack or not. No other information whatsoever is available. (And that isn't useful, of course, since you'll also know if it's a blackjack or not immediately.)

    This isn't a viable play, at least if procedure is followed. If you can get a dealer to deviate from procedure, then, of course, there are opportunities. But it's a pretty obvious error on their part that is picked up quickly.

    Caveat: There may be tables out there without modern peeking devices (or they're broken), but they are very rare.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDoe View Post
    With modern peeking devices they only know if it's a blackjack or not. No other information is given to the dealer.

    The dealer can't even know if it's a ten in the hole if a ten is showing. They use a different method for checking under an ace or ten, such as orienting the cards differently (straight for 10, sideways for A), or using a different button to check for blackjack.

    But in all cases, all the information they have is whether it is a blackjack or not. No other information whatsoever is available. (And that isn't useful, of course, since you'll also know if it's a blackjack or not immediately.)

    This isn't a viable play, at least if procedure is followed. If you can get a dealer to deviate from procedure, then, of course, there are opportunities. But it's a pretty obvious error on their part that is picked up quickly.

    Caveat: There may be tables out there without modern peeking devices (or they're broken), but they are very rare.
    Okay, so with modern blackjack tables and games the ONLY card that can be read with the peek device is the Ace from the dealers perspective, correct? But when the dealer has an Ace showing and they check the other card with the peek device they can detect if the card is a ten John Doe.
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; September 20th, 2016 at 03:19 PM.

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    Really John Doe? I thought when the dealer checked the hole card whenever they have an Ace or Face showing that they would know the value of any card once they check for the Blackjack. So your saying that once the dealer checks for the blackjack that they cannot tell whether the card value is 2 thru 9?
    That is pretty elementary....
    ....though in years past some smaller casinos occasionally used the wrong type of cards that DID show more info.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
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  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    That is pretty elementary....
    ....though in years past some smaller casinos occasionally used the wrong type of cards that DID show more info.
    I never really knew what the dealer could see with the peek device other than the card being a ace or face. I wasn't sure so I had to ask. I've never worked for the house and I don't know any casino dealers outside of the casino. I was curious to know but it does make sense that the game would have to be protected in such a manner because it would be to easy to give the game away.
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; September 20th, 2016 at 03:44 PM.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    Okay, so with modern blackjack tables and games the ONLY card that can be read with the peek device is the Ace from the dealers perspective, correct? But when the dealer has an Ace showing and they check the other card with the peek device they can detect if the card is a ten John Doe.
    Correct. If it's a ten up, they can check for ace/no ace. If it's an ace up, they check for ten/no ten. That's it. Bottom line: "Is it a blackjack or not." There's no possibility for collusion if procedure is followed.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDoe View Post
    Correct. If it's a ten up, they can check for ace/no ace. If it's an ace up, they check for ten/no ten. That's it. Bottom line: "Is it a blackjack or not." There's no possibility for collusion if procedure is followed.
    Okay, so if the dealer has a ten up card and they check with the peek device and the HC happens to be a another ten, there is NO way the dealer would know that they have a ten in the hole? That is what you are saying. I'm slightly confused on the ten value cards because if the dealer has an Ace showing, how would they know if they have a ten in the hole unless ten value cards are readable with the peek device. Have you ever dealt blackjack in a casino? That leads me back to the beginning where if the dealer had a ten showing, but lets just say they had a 6 in the hole, they check for the blackjack and the dealer sees that there is NO Ace in the hole, so play continues to the players. I have to believe that Aces and faces are readable with the peek device. For the people out in Vegas, ask a dealer buddy if you have one on which cards are readable with the blackjack peek device. I want to know.

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    Okay, so if the dealer has a ten up card and they check with the peek device and the HC happens to be a another ten, there is NO way the dealer would know that they have a ten in the hole? That is what you are saying. I'm slightly confused on the ten value cards because if the dealer has an Ace showing, how would they know if they have a ten in the hole unless ten value cards are readable with the peek device. Have you ever dealt blackjack in a casino? That leads me back to the beginning where if the dealer had a ten showing, but lets just say they had a 6 in the hole, they check for the blackjack and the dealer sees that there is NO Ace in the hole, so play continues to the players. I have to believe that Aces and faces are readable with the peek device. For the people out in Vegas, ask a dealer buddy if you have one on which cards are readable with the blackjack peek device. I want to know.
    If the casino is using the correct cards, then NO no way to know. However, smaller casinos
    in the past have been known to use incorrect cards that did provide the dealer with more info.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    Okay, so if the dealer has a ten up card and they check with the peek device and the HC happens to be a another ten, there is NO way the dealer would know that they have a ten in the hole? That is what you are saying. I'm slightly confused on the ten value cards because if the dealer has an Ace showing, how would they know if they have a ten in the hole unless ten value cards are readable with the peek device. Have you ever dealt blackjack in a casino? That leads me back to the beginning where if the dealer had a ten showing, but lets just say they had a 6 in the hole, they check for the blackjack and the dealer sees that there is NO Ace in the hole, so play continues to the players. I have to believe that Aces and faces are readable with the peek device. For the people out in Vegas, ask a dealer buddy if you have one on which cards are readable with the blackjack peek device. I want to know.
    Correct. They don't know if they have a ten in the hole if a ten is showing. Only an ace.

    The peek procedure is different for a 10 vs A up, as I've already said above. In most cases (mirror reader), when checking the HC when a ten is up, the cards are slid straight into the reader. This allows the peek device to check if there is an ace or not, due to the ace being in the far corner of the card (compared to the numbers). If an ace is up, the cards are rotated 90 degrees and placed into the reader. This checks if it's a ten or not, sometimes with a black corner mark. Or, the A is placed in a different corner than the 10-K, while other numbers are recessed (and therefore invisible to the dealer).

    In other systems, there is a button on the reader that says "T" or "A", telling the reader what card is up. The reader responds "blackjack" or "not blackjack" appropriately.

    Believe us or not, it's definitely the case. The dealer has NO information that you don't have.

  10. #25
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    I wish it was so easy....

    In line with how you were talking Blitz, you CAN find dealers who understand ways to cheat the game in favor of the player. I have no idea how this could happen as much as I've seen it happen actually but it happens a lot. And it happens under of conditions of relative anonymity!
    I got in an argument with boz with T3 on my side on other site about this. t3 stated that you an train results via your tipping. In other words, if you are going to tip anyway, try not to kill your hourly and only do it when dealer does advantageous things or mistakes in ur favor. I've seen this overall to be very minorly if at all effective, which is what boz was saying in our argument.

  11. #26

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    Lots of things a dealer can be prodded to do to help the AP, without risking their job:

    1. Cut deeper
    2. Speed up the game
    3. Shoo away undesirables (or draw them in, if you want them eating cards).
    4. Deflect the pit
    5. Shuffle when you ask (once in a while)

    Tipping does help grease the wheels, but they don't always know what to do - sometimes you need to ask for what you want. Being friendly to them helps, as does just making their job easier or more pleasant (requesting the table be non-smoking, for example). I've had a few "favored" dealers over the years who had no idea what I was up to, but I ended up playing with them quite a lot, and they were really helpful with the above. They liked playing with me so much they let me know when their upcoming shifts were. A little courtesy goes a long way.

  12. #27
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    Boz is offline Major Asshole Bet Welshing Loser - BANNED
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    I've become friendly with plenty of dealers. It NEVER has anything to do with tipping. It has to do with whether we genuinely like each other or not. Dealers are not circus animals. You do not train them. T3 is not just offensively condescending when he says this. He's self-deluded. He thinks he's so much smarter than someone he can almost telepathically cause them to do things. Not the case.

    When dealers make significant errors, I often tip significantly more than usual. I'm not "training" the dealers. I'm "telling" the dealers, using non-verbal communication, that "hey, you fucked that one up. If you would like to cheat, I'll continue to pay you." THAT'S IT! Sometimes they catch the message, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they seemingly agree, sometimes they don't. I would not recommend this for high stakes because you never would want to do anything to indicate you knew you it was a mispay. As for low stakes, "training" the dealer, whatever the fuck that is, is completely impractical. Tips simply cost too much. I give a gratuity for errors, after the fact, to encourage more--beyond that, there's no room for experimentation. The general rule of thumb is to always get more than your tip. So if you know you are going to get something, then go ahead. There is no training process involved; it's observation prior to the tipping. The dealer may seem amenable to giving deep penetration (which I would think highly unusual, since penetration is usually standardized AND most dealers don't understand why it is important). Maybe the dealer is on the fence about a reshuffle. A small tip may help him decide in your favor. There's no brainwashing of the dealer involved!!

    T3 is full of shit. Everyone should be aware of that by now. Opportunities can arise where a tip can get you something. But no one goes in and treats a dealer like a circus monkey. It's fucking moronic to even suggest such a thing. T3 imagines himself a leader of men. Not only is he not, he'd make a shitty leader if he were. But he does seem like someone who might one day start a cult.
    Last edited by Boz; September 22nd, 2016 at 02:30 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDoe View Post
    Lots of things a dealer can be prodded to do to help the AP, without risking their job:

    1. Cut deeper
    2. Speed up the game
    3. Shoo away undesirables (or draw them in, if you want them eating cards).
    4. Deflect the pit
    5. Shuffle when you ask (once in a while)

    Tipping does help grease the wheels, but they don't always know what to do - sometimes you need to ask for what you want. Being friendly to them helps, as does just making their job easier or more pleasant (requesting the table be non-smoking, for example). I've had a few "favored" dealers over the years who had no idea what I was up to, but I ended up playing with them quite a lot, and they were really helpful with the above. They liked playing with me so much they let me know when their upcoming shifts were. A little courtesy goes a long way.
    Hey John, could you explain some of the details surrounding #4 on your list? At a lot of the places I play I run into dealers that rotate as pit. Mostly from what I can tell this involves sheer operation administration and is quite mundane. I wonder about what practices are used to "deflect" the critters...

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    If the casino is using the correct cards, then NO no way to know. However, smaller casinos
    in the past have been known to use incorrect cards that did provide the dealer with more info.
    I've always wondered what the dealer could see.

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDoe View Post
    Correct. They don't know if they have a ten in the hole if a ten is showing. Only an ace.

    The peek procedure is different for a 10 vs A up, as I've already said above. In most cases (mirror reader), when checking the HC when a ten is up, the cards are slid straight into the reader. This allows the peek device to check if there is an ace or not, due to the ace being in the far corner of the card (compared to the numbers). If an ace is up, the cards are rotated 90 degrees and placed into the reader. This checks if it's a ten or not, sometimes with a black corner mark. Or, the A is placed in a different corner than the 10-K, while other numbers are recessed (and therefore invisible to the dealer).

    In other systems, there is a button on the reader that says "T" or "A", telling the reader what card is up. The reader responds "blackjack" or "not blackjack" appropriately.

    Believe us or not, it's definitely the case. The dealer has NO information that you don't have.
    Thanks JohnDoe.

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