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Thread: What About Card-based Craps?

  1. #1

    Default Article on gaming

    Here is an interesting article involving Grosjean on a craps game where cards are used in place of the bones. Under certain stipulations the dice/cards can have a memory. I wonder if they've ever had to hand shuffle such a game? Probably so I reckon. I've never played a craps game where cards represent the dice on a Reservation Casino but such a game sounds fun. To sim such differences where the player is getting 3 cards of information and how it gets loaded into the shuffler whether a wash is given or not and how it may impact the next flip of the card is mind boggling. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/ma...e-casinos.html The deal to such a game has my interest and how the dealer was sweeping the exposed players cards. I'm not sure the article mentioned if players could hop easy numbers like 6 & 8 or 5 & 9 where they played.
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; July 5th, 2016 at 03:45 AM.

  2. #2

    Default What About Card-based Craps?

    What would be more helpful to me is how to figure out how Munchkin and Grosjean figured out the edge in Card Craps; the game we have around here and exploited it AP style. Per NY Times article. Then no dice setting needed. LOL And that's NON AP BJ play that Villiam was looking for.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJOK View Post
    What would be more helpful to me is how to figure out how Munchkin and Grosjean figured out the edge in Card Craps; the game we have around here and exploited it AP style. Per NY Times article. Then no dice setting needed. LOL And that's NON AP BJ play that Villiam was looking for.
    I would not say that it was Munchkin who figured it out. After reading that recent article written about Grosjean I think it was James who figured it out. I don't think the article got the attention it probably deserves from what I've seen posted on certain forums. James had to use Munchkin for cover as a BP the way I see it. He needed a body & face to use and am sure he probably trusted Munchkin to some degree. The thing they really didn't discuss that I wanted to know was the bankroll issue. I wanted to know if Munchkin put up any money in the endeavor, or did James put it all up? Another thing that I had noticed was how Grosjean was controlling Munchkin via signals, that leads me to believe that James probably did NOT teach Munchkin everything about the AP play itself such as when to switch his bets, perhaps it was because James had to be in a certain position to see the bottom card depending on the angle. Or he doesn't want someone else burning out his play when he's not around. You don't hear about this type of play everyday.
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; July 26th, 2016 at 12:41 AM.

  4. #4

    Default

    It was not an original Grojean play.
    I recall private correspondence with Sonny developing a count system for it in '06.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  5. #5
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    Where is that article? I gotta read it again, but the gist I got was that he (Grosjean) found a way to analyze probabilities of the next card to come using knowledge of what was already out and computer analysis of specific CSM or ASM in use.

    Then there's Munchkin coming in to be the big player I suppose? And from what I know it was an abysmal failure (so far). He will perfect the hack one day but not with triflin' Munchkin with him it sounds like...

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    It was not an original Grojean play.
    I recall private correspondence with Sonny developing a count system for it in '06.
    I stand corrected then. I thought it was Grosjean who figured out that craps play, my mistake. From the article I understood that Grosjean was basically calling the shots sending the signals to Munchkin.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Villiam View Post
    Where is that article? I gotta read it again, but the gist I got was that he (Grosjean) found a way to analyze probabilities of the next card to come using knowledge of what was already out and computer analysis of specific CSM or ASM in use.

    Then there's Munchkin coming in to be the big player I suppose? And from what I know it was an abysmal failure (so far). He will perfect the hack one day but not with triflin' Munchkin with him it sounds like...
    Munchkin was the BP. From what I heard via the interview on GWAE, Grosjean and Munchkin lost that initial craps session when they played together. I think they had some signalling issues and maybe other issues to work out. It already sounds like Grosjean was successful with it as he mentioned that they scored $300K+ at some Florida casino. I think Munchkin is an okay guy with a squeaky voice, I like his podcasts that he and Dancer do with other gamblers to hear their insight. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/ma...e-casinos.html
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; July 26th, 2016 at 04:52 PM.

  8. #8

    Default So Great reference............but doesn anyone know the play?

    I mean Card Craps isn't located in a lot of areas. They HAVE to do that here. And they were playing just west of here about 45 minutes. I know it was sometime ago but game still exists. Anyone know the play or willing to explain it?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJOK View Post
    I mean Card Craps isn't located in a lot of areas. They HAVE to do that here. And they were playing just west of here about 45 minutes. I know it was sometime ago but game still exists. Anyone know the play or willing to explain it?
    I've heard of card craps before but have never seen it in operation. I think they have 2 different variations of the game but I'm not totally sure. Find the interview on the new gamblingwithanedge.com. I don't know exactly what they were doing. Then again I'm not the type of person to chase someone else's play when I do not totally understand it myself. That is the smartest thing to do. If you go there whip out your phone camera if you have one and record the game while it's in play, post it here so we can observe MJOK. Maybe that's where he got the flesh eating bacteria from. I've read on some reservations in North America that they have some 3rd world diseases that still exist today and are exclusive to reservations.

  10. #10

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    Blitz, I can try. Though they obviously discourage use of cell phones in casino and at tables.

    It's not third world at all here............LOL Nor is it ON a reservation but it IS on tribal land. However the one they were at is located almost directly on an interstate. So easy access............by car. HAHA. It's because under the state compacts, no dice games or roulette wheels are permitted. SO to get around the compact rule, they use cards instead for the dice and the roulette wheel. The cards in roulette sound like you used to put on your bicycle as a kid with a clothesline clip. Just to make the noise from the spokes of your wheel? Well it sounds similar.

    As to dice, they use cards 1-6 to substitute for the dice but they have a preliminary choice (some use a big die; some use a random draw of cards initially) to pick the "dice" numbers from 1-6. Same craps rules; just a convoluted way to get there. Grosjean and Munchkin determined a way (with HUGE variance) to ascertain when certain cards would be pulled (or less likelihood to be pulled) and then appropriately increased their bets on those numbers.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJOK View Post
    Blitz, I can try. Though they obviously discourage use of cell phones in casino and at tables.

    It's not third world at all here............LOL Nor is it ON a reservation but it IS on tribal land. However the one they were at is located almost directly on an interstate. So easy access............by car. HAHA. It's because under the state compacts, no dice games or roulette wheels are permitted. SO to get around the compact rule, they use cards instead for the dice and the roulette wheel. The cards in roulette sound like you used to put on your bicycle as a kid with a clothesline clip. Just to make the noise from the spokes of your wheel? Well it sounds similar.

    As to dice, they use cards 1-6 to substitute for the dice but they have a preliminary choice (some use a big die; some use a random draw of cards initially) to pick the "dice" numbers from 1-6. Same craps rules; just a convoluted way to get there. Grosjean and Munchkin determined a way (with HUGE variance) to ascertain when certain cards would be pulled (or less likelihood to be pulled) and then appropriately increased their bets on those numbers.
    I know they discourage the use of cell phones but I'd like to see what the game looks like if you can manage since your nearby. So the casino is on tribal land, ok. If it's right off the interstate that's easy access, good idea heading into OKC. I didn't know they had a roulette game that used cards as well. As far as the card craps, the whole preliminary choice with the big die seems a bit confusing but I'm sure it's not. I briefly watched a card craps video online but the deck was placed in a type of card housing where the stickman passed the card housing with the cards inside to the shooter, then the shooter tucked a cut card into the deck and that's how the dice combination was picked.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Villiam View Post
    Where is that article? I gotta read it again, but the gist I got was that he (Grosjean) found a way to analyze probabilities of the next card to come using knowledge of what was already out and computer analysis of specific CSM or ASM in use.
    I'll read the article and comment accordingly, but initially it was just a card-counting system.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  13. #13

    Default

    Stephen How offers the most complete treatment of AP card craps at his Discount Gambling site -

    > Card Craps (+EV)

    > More Card Craps Articles -page 1

    > More Card Craps Articles -page 2
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Stephen How offers the most complete treatment of AP card craps at his Discount Gambling site -

    > Card Craps (+EV)

    > More Card Craps Articles -page 1

    > More Card Craps Articles -page 2
    How further analyzes math involved in overcoming the casino edge in CSMs.

  15. #15
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    I recall private correspondence with Sonny developing a count system for it in '06.
    Wow, that was a while ago. Yeah, initially the casinos were dealing craps from a shoe which meant the game was countable and potentially trackable. Once they started getting hit too hard they switched to shuffle machines. A few of us (independently apparently) reverse engineered the machines and were able to predict how the cards would come out. The casinos tried several different machines, including at least 3 by Shufflemaster, but they were all vulnerable to some degree or another. After randomly changing the game conditions and blindly tweaking the dealing procedures they eventually lowered the edge enough that it wasn't worth playing anymore. The fact that they didn't fix the games shows that they don't truly understand the vulnerability, which is why people aren't discussing the details on public forums.

    -Sonny-

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