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Thread: Egregious & Capricious Wattenberger

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    Default Egregious & Capricious Wattenberger

    Yesterday a little girl named “Stinky” Wattenberger continued to beat a dead horse by referencing me on his voodoo site and attempting to rehash the old feud. With no way to respond on his site due to his dictatorship, I sent him an email. No threats. No name-calling. Just asked him to stop referencing me and move on.

    His response was to file an abuse complaint with Yahoo.com. His complaint has no merit as there was never any threats made. Watten-boogie has communicated back and forth via email with me for several months since he banned me...which further makes his claim irrelevant.

    But...What a dickhead and baby this guy is. He's a freaking little girl. A very small individual. To quote the movie hangover “he is just a bad person right through to his core”.

    He is a bully and when that doesn't work...a crybaby. He cried to Mike Shackleford and had me silenced on a site that Watten-boogie doesn't even participate on. I am a very tolerant person and an easygoing guy. I don't hold a grudge and like to move forward. I never wish anything bad about anyone, even when they have done me wrong. But this guy is a sleezy, low life. The day he dies, the blackjack community will be better off and I for one WILL celebrate (que the "ding dong, the wicked witch is dead" music.)

    I know you are reading this, Stinky, because you are an ego-maniac and are obsessed with knowing everything being said about you. So do us all a favor and just drop dead and make the blackjack community and world a better place.
    Last edited by KewlJ; April 21st, 2016 at 07:03 PM.

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    Default Stinky and KJ

    KJ, I like your attitude, sorta like the Conor McGregor of old Congrats, take no shet from Ol' Stinky, he is indeed emotionally handicapped, and very very disturbed.

    You do not need that site or any one on it, move forward and put all this shet in the past, and then flush it.

    I have it on good source that Stinky has voiced a desire for suicide, feeling his world is crumbling all around him, sales way down, collapsed love life, failing health and now,,,, panic attacks.

    I wish you the best KJ, and come here whenever you like to share life experiences.

    CP
    "Midwest Masters Of Advantage", "Strength and Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by KJ View Post
    Yesterday a little girl named “Stinky” Wattenberger continued to beat a dead horse by referencing me on his voodoo site and attempting to rehash the old feud. With no way to respond on his site due to his dictatorship, I sent him an email. No threats. No name-calling. Just asked him to stop referencing me and move on.

    His response was to file an abuse complaint with Yahoo.com. His complaint has no merit as there was never any threats made. Watten-boogie has communicated back and forth via email with me for several months since he banned me...which further makes his claim irrelevant.

    But...What a dickhead and baby this guy is. He's a freaking little girl. A very small individual. To quote the movie hangover “he is just a bad person right through to his core”.

    He is a bully and when that doesn't work...a crybaby. He cried to Mike Shackleford and had me silenced on a site that Watten-boogie doesn't even participate on. I am a very tolerant person and an easygoing guy. I don't hold a grudge and like to move forward. I never wish anything bad about anyone, even when they have done me wrong. But this guy is a sleezy, low life. The day he dies, the blackjack community will be better off and I for one WILL celebrate (que the "ding dong, the wicked witch is dead" music.)

    I know you are reading this, Stinky, because you are an ego-maniac and are obsessed with knowing everything being said about you. So do us all a favor and just drop dead and make the blackjack community and world a better place.
    You now know why I never purchased his stinking software.

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    So KJ, NM is still debating with you which count system he should use?
    After over 10000 BS bragging posts, it turns out that T3 doesn't even play BJ! What a damn joke, LOL!
    T3 is no threat to any casino because he spends most of his time bragging on BTF.
    T3: Talk The Talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fat_bumblebee View Post
    So KJ, NM is still debating with you which count system he should use?
    who is NM?

    But no...this is not about a count debate. It really hasn't been about a count debate for quite some time.

    This is about Stinky's attempt to censor and silence anyone who doesn't agree with him or has an unfavorable opinion of his site and those few members that now dominate the site and mislead newer players.

    It has been going on almost since Stinky started the site. He promised a site where AP's could share opinions and ideas free from censorship, and then almost immediately began systematically eliminating all the different AP's that he has had issues with over the years or don't agree with his views and opinions. He tries to control opinions, not only on his site, but now on other sites that he doesn't even participate on. He wants to censor and control opinions about him and his site throughout the whole internet.

    The good news is that as CP hinted, traffic at Smelly's site is down considerably. Currently about 85 members visit per day down from 140-150 daily not long ago. Most of that decline is knowledgeable AP's that Stinky has silenced or have left on their own. Of the 85 members that visit daily, 70+ just lurk. There are half a dozen legit AP's left that occasionally chime in and of course the 4-5 loud mouths that claim to know it all and make 90% of the posts and all sorts of outrageous claims. The site has been reduced to nothing more than a “voodoo” site.

    So it hasn't been about a count debate for quite some time. It's just a censorship thing and one smelly control freak, attempting to control opinions and everything said and eliminate anyone who has their own opinion.
    Last edited by KewlJ; April 23rd, 2016 at 02:49 AM.

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    Default Kj

    KJ, I sense you are moving on, and I know it can be hard after all these years, but something else will open up where you can direct your energies. STINKY is on the verge of imploding, better you are gone when that happens. I strongly recommend you write a book on your vast experiences in the gaming world, I think at one time you were keeping a running memoir, at least I seem to remember that,,,but relax, do not stress,,all will be well.


    CP
    "Midwest Masters Of Advantage", "Strength and Honor."

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    Hey guys!!
    Again I am relieved to see that ole Stinky is the man with issues and not us. KJ I still am in shock over your tussle with Stinky. .
    Like CP says it's time to move on. I have !!!!!!

    But you know what ??? I would still love to have a BLackjack site of old. But maybe it's true you can't never go back......only forward.

    With the condition of Carnival games now days I surely could talk much more freely about a lot of games now. Back years ago most of us guys couldn't talk because of the money to be made.

    Open your own site KJ ........The good people will show up ......

    Take care all

    Life is good.........live it!!!!!

    Mac
    So look buddy it's nothing personal, but either your the unluckiest person in the world or your stealing from me. Either way............ I WANT NO PART OF YOU!!!!!! NEVER!!!!

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    Default Man Boy At Work

    Some of the funniest trolling about WoV has been in the thread at: http://www.gamblingforums.com/thread...-is-dying.3391

    One of the busiest threads at WoV now: http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-t...l/25772-kewlj/

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    On another site, there was a little discussion of Norm. One member made the following post: "Norm is an asshole as well- fuck that punk- he rambled in every single email he ever sent me"

    I thought some here might enjoy my reply, so I am reposting it here:

    Anyone that has ever communicated privately with Norm knows that he is absolutely nuts. I am not just name-calling....he is quite literally insane. He has no grasp on reality and everything is about everyone that has done him wrong throughout history. He has had long feuds with dozens (that's plural of dozen) of some of the most successful AP's in the community, including site owners. And everyone of these feuds involve him threatening to sue them or reporting them to some agency or oversight organization.

    Until recently, if you hadn't had the opportunity to deal with him personally, you wouldn't know how crazy he was, because he comes across as pretty normal, and level headed on message board sites, or at least he did until recently. In the last 6 months, his behavior, going after me on BJ21 (a blackjack message board previously owned by Stanford Wong, now owned by the same online group that owns WizardofVegas) and again trolling me to, and going after me on WoV, and his continued fighting with the WoV members after I was gone, has really exposed his rapidly declining mental state.

    Make no mistake, he has damaged my reputation, which he set out to do. But he has damaged his own reputation far greater. I am a peon. Small potatoes in the AP community. A lowly card counter, grinding out a living. Norm is one of the great blackjack mathematicians and his software has benefited so many players from professional to hobbyist. In my own case, I know in no uncertain terms, that I would not be where I am today, without having benefited from Norm's software.

    I try to separate the two, Norm's tremendous contribution to the blackjack community and the fact that he is nuts....but it's hard to do. And now his declining mental state has spilled over to his blackjack website. When he started the website, less than 5 years ago, it was immediately one of the top two blackjack AP websites, second to only BJ21. Norm's site had many professional and successful players at all levels participating. And nearly all have left because he has allowed the site to be taken over by a handful of outcasts making ridiculous claims. Mathematically impossible claims. Claims that the mathematical expert Norm of a few years ago, would have never stood for. And now nearly all those successful players are gone, or participate very infrequently, having been banned or driven away and Norm's site is universally recognized as pretty much a voodoo site, dominated by a handful of people in a fantasy world.

    I honestly feel bad that Norm's decline of the last couple years, is going to tarnish his legacy. And I feel bad that I am a part of that with my feud with him taking center stage and spilling on to multiple sites throughout the community. I wonder if I could have/should have done things differently. But I feel like, if it wasn't me, it would have been someone else. Norm seems to seek out confrontation and even now, he is involved with feuds and war of words with multiple AP's (just a slightly less magnitude than the feud with me).


    KewlJ, Today at 7:24 AM
    Last edited by KewlJ; July 18th, 2016 at 03:52 AM.

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    Excellent post, KJ. I didn't know he stalked you on BJ21 too. He treats you like I treat my ex-girlfriends, and even I know that's wrong. Does he ever offer you $20 to do what he wants, and if you refuse, threatens to hurt himself? Just wondering, not that I ever did something like that.

    Yes, Norm threatens to report everyone to the copyright police, the FBI, the U.N., and God knows who else. But he's "never made a legal threat in his life." He's never made a CREDIBLE legal threat--sure, I can believe that. He's a crackpot. Most adults have had to make some sort of minor legal threat in their lives by the time they get to be a senior citizen. Not too long ago, I wrote AT&T Legal a demand letter for overbilling, and they sent me a $100 check. You don't need a lawyer to assert your legal rights. So either we're telling the truth or Norm NEVER made a legal threat in his life because he's an extraordinarily lucky saint and we're liars. Which seems more likely? Hmm.

    I don't like the credit you give for his software. Lots and lots of software engineers out there. My uncle made golf software to try and make a little side income. Plenty of people could have made that software. They just didn't because there's no market. I can see why it would be helpful to full-time counters. But are there any full-time straight counters besides the eminent KJ? Three years ago, it was marketed to part-time red-chippers playing shoes with marginal penetration, who weren't even using full indices, as if it would dramatically help their game. I was one of them. I managed to find a few ways to improve my game without using software--like finding better penetration. Useless, IMO. It's a convenience, nothing more. I assume it's better quality than the cheaper SBA, but not sure why it's a better value. The only thing I want simmed is something I don't understand and there's no data on. That software can't do that. Only Dog Hand can. Even if it could, I wouldn't know how.
    Last edited by Boz; July 18th, 2016 at 06:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boz View Post
    Excellent post, KJ. I didn't know he stalked you on BJ21 too.
    I am not going to say Norm “stalked” me to BJ21 because he was a long standing member there. But because of a previous feuds with Stanford Wong, and others, Norm didn't participate very often. Every once in a while he would chime in with something. But when I posted my thoughts about what was going on at his site, he jumped in with guns blazing. We went back and forth numerous times. But I later learned that the sleazy thing he did there was that he requested Al Rodgers to ban me, but Al would have no part of it.

    But at Wizard of Vegas (WoV), a site where I had participated for 4 years, he definitely did stalk and troll me. Norm had originally became a member when WoV began more than 6 years ago. He posted less than 10 times in the first couple months and then disappeared. On Norm's own site, he once mentioned that he did not participate at WoV because he did not trust Shackleford after Mike took a consulting job at Venetian. So he clearly had no interest in participating there.

    But when the topic of Norm's site came up (and I wasn't the one who raised it), I expressed my opinion of Norm's site and the member's that dominate it. Next thing I know, Norm shows up after a 5 year, nine month absence, to start arguing my opinion (he doesn't seem to understand the concept of 'opinion'). We go back and forth for a while and next thing I know, I get a message from Shackleford informing me he is invoking what he calls a 'truce', where I can't talk about or mention Norm or his site. Now mind you, I was a 4+ year member, who contributed regularly (3200+ posts). Norm had not posted in 5 years, 9 months.

    Of course this truce was not Mike's idea. It was Norm's just as he had requested Al Roger's at BJ21 ban me. But unlike Al, in Mike Shackleford, Norm found a sympathetic ear, someone willing to go along with him. So, then first time I mentioned Norm after that, Norm emailed Shackleford 19 times within a 24 hour period demanding that I be banned. And Shackleford did. Let me repeat that....19 times in a 24 hour period....that is bat shit crazy!

    Now here's where it gets even crazier. With the WoV membership furious, there is a thread discussing suspension and many members and Norm go back and forth for several weeks. I am not even there any more, but Norm is rambling on and one, about me, about how everyone is out to get him. He just sounds like a crazy person. And then he leaves the site, not to be heard from again.

    All in all, he posted about 50 times, all disputing my opinion, or fighting with the membership after I was gone. Not one single positive type contribution, as that was never his intent. So I would definitely call his appearance at WoV, stalking or trolling me. He had no interest in that site, only to have me silenced and he found a sympathetic, willing partner in Shackleford.

    As for Norm's software, we will just have to disagree. To someone with really strong math and software programing skills, yeah, maybe you could do just as well on your own. I consider my math skills about average, but that translates to bottom of the barrel among the strong math AP community. And I don't know a damn thing about programing software. So for someone like me Norm's software was a blessing. It was the difference in figuring out exact RoR numbers and using some outdated "100 Max bet rule". And I learn optimal bet spreads and ramps, where I would have probably used some sort of generic spread and ramp, far from optimal.

    And just playing around with the software and numbers, I learned all kinds of thinks I otherwise wouldn't have been able to. You get to see how exiting at certain negative numbers effects win rate and risk of ruin. I got to see how replacing a few of the negative count rounds (per 100 rounds) with a few extra plus count rounds can dramatically improve results. This became the basis for my tracking two tables and jumping directly from a negative or neutral count to a more positive situation.

    So I benefited tremendously from Norm's software and I know sure other's did as well. Just because Norm is crazy as shit and I have many problems with him as a site administrator and even more as a person, I can't deny credit where credit is due and I think his software is an outstanding things that benefitted many throughout the community.
    Last edited by KewlJ; July 18th, 2016 at 06:56 AM.

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    Yeah, I read the trolling at WoV. Let's be honest about a few things (Norm). You harass people by email and send inordinate amounts of unsolicited email, and you never denied 19 emails, a number brought up more than once. The moderators over there ban everyone for anything under the sun, and anyone else engaging in your conduct would have banned a month or more for trolling. Now you adamantly deny you ever "asked" that KJ be banned to me, even though I never brought up the issue. So, I'll take that as true IF you admit that you said or implied you wanted KJ to be sanctioned, and pointed out a bunch of things KJ did to deserve it--in 19 different emails singularly focused on that topic. Deal, liar?

    KJ can you link that BJ21 stuff. I haven't read that. If he's active there, maybe I'll join. How much can I get away with without getting banned?

    You say the software is useful, but I'm still like, nah. You give good examples. You're full-time, you're making tweaks, and I imagine you need to operate with significant cover. Your typical part-time red-chipper OUTSIDE of LV or AC plays at like one casino going from like 5-50 twice a month. A couple years ago, every single person who came to that site was immediately bombarded with "buy Norm's software." Completely useless. That player doesn't need to know the cost of exiting at each count. He needs to know always exit at -1 and always split 10s. You know what I mean? Whatever use you got from it, I don't think it was representative of the average value of getting the software. Just my opinion. And I'm strongly critical of the way in which it was pushed on everyone, particularly me. I was a leper for not getting it. When it comes to something like that, I think counters of all levels have a pretty good innate understanding of how much value the software offers and whether it is a good purchase. Except people like RS--some of them just live in a sim world, where actual results are irrelevant. Or some other people I won't mention, who manipulate sim data to misrepresent the real world in order to make an invalid point. As applied to my game or questions I'm answering about the game, I've seen a whole lot more uselessness come of it than usefulness.
    Last edited by Boz; July 18th, 2016 at 07:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boz View Post
    KJ can you link that BJ21 stuff. I haven't read that. If he's active there, maybe I'll join. How much can I get away with without getting banned?
    I cannot link to the BJ21 stuff, as I am not currently a member there. I let my membership run out early this year after Norm attacked me there.

    BJ21 was very progressive in allowing members to speak their mind. In my 4-5 years there, I am only aware of one person, Freightman being banned and that was after several years of being a complete asshole. However, the site has changed ownership a few months ago, so it is possible things have changed, although Al Rogers (LVbear) is still in charge, so that's a good sign.

    As a matter of fact, if you email AL (contact info at site) he used to allow new people like a two week trail membership to look around and see if they think they would enjoy the site.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boz View Post
    Does he ever .... threatens to hurt himself?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by KJ View Post
    I honestly feel bad that Norm's decline of the last couple years, is going to tarnish his legacy. And I feel bad that I am a part of that with my feud with him taking center stage and spilling on to multiple sites throughout the community. I wonder if I could have/should have done things differently. But I feel like, if it wasn't me, it would have been someone else. Norm seems to seek out confrontation and even now, he is involved with feuds and war of words with multiple AP's (just a slightly less magnitude than the feud with me).
    Your words and heartfelt consideration mirror my own posted in past years...
    ... you remember, when you like CP tried to make the peace, as did Nathan Tilton and others.

    But mental or not he is to be held accountable - the lies err hallucinations he conjured on us to others privately are vile and outrageous.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by KJ View Post
    Norm emailed Shackleford 19 times within a 24 hour period demanding that I be banned. And Shackleford did. Let me repeat that....19 times in a 24 hour period....that is bat shit crazy!
    He emailed the owners of my company a half-dozen times in a 72 hour period, claiming that I was destroying his livelyhood and citing half-truths as 'evidence.'
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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