Setting the Dice

[Boz]

So you are saying dice control isn't a valid theory? I think I could create evidence of truth to it, beyond sliding and such. Maybe I will find that degenerate street walker hitchhiker I met again one day soon and do a little private video just watching him throw 200 dice at home... He became trustworthy when he invited me back for Fourth of July fireworks and he was actually there in the middle of hill country dismantling bear traps at an abandoned mine shaft overlooking the whole display from on high.

If someone can give me good directions that's a sign that they know something about what they're talking about....

Yes, I'm saying it doesn't work. I recently watched a Breaking Vegas documentary about Dom Legregio or whatever and Frank Scobolete or whatever. At the end, Dom's a bit pissed off for getting harassed by the dealer and a suit. So he throws a $100 on hard 10 (why not a $10,000?). Of course he rolls it (why not just roll it everytime?). I've briefly talked to this Scobelete guy. I don't buy one thing he says and I don't think he's really an AP. He's a writer writing stories to subsidize his gambling. Does he know some people who hit positive variance? Probably. The theory of dice control may be sound in a controlled environment, without hitting the back wall.

[Villiam]

I wonder myself. I've looked into the Scoob enough to have serious doubts. He definitely seems like what you say he is, in fact, that he may be one of the luckier ones and rolls with other "lucky ones" that are experiencing good variance and good-vibe delusions. That said, he doesn't condone any sucker bets from what I can see and this guy swore by his book.

I actually said the same thing you said about not playing off the back wall and he said, "You have to. The key is finding the right table conditions, having a roll at a standard distance that you've practiced for two years and understanding how to throw the dice so that the effect of the egg-crate diamond-shaped backing is minimal." He explained to me much more about what this entails, some evoking simplicity, some suggesting a high-level of analysis and scouting. He suggested to me that the book Golden Touch Dice was his bible on the matter, that it's a relatively new piece from the Scoob, and that it's unquestionably applicable and he can prove it.

I heard there were some craps players here. Maybe someone can speak about the particulars more here, or maybe someone with the interest in the game can take on the book and really give it the time it deserves to get an answer one way or the other.

I kind of like how this AP play is viewed as a conspiracy theory. Seems like great cover for your secrets. It also leads us to a cool hypothetical Boz, suppose this guy writes this book, making some of it up, adding extra details that are superfluous or untestable, and does it to make money and because he think he's found something however small that he can trump up. Wouldn't it be neat if devotees and believers across the land made it true? What if it was held so suspect that it never became a casino concern?

[Boz]

I kind of like how this AP play is viewed as a conspiracy theory. Seems like great cover for your secrets. It also leads us to a cool hypothetical Boz, suppose this guy writes this book, making some of it up, adding extra details that are superfluous or untestable, and does it to make money and because he think he's found something however small that he can trump up. Wouldn't it be neat if devotees and believers across the land made it true? What if it was held so suspect that it never became a casino concern?

It isn't a casino concern. But just like anything, if you are winning, they hawk you and screw with you. And in some extreme cases, may even boot you for no other reason than being lucky. When casinos have known about this "method" for years, and are wholly unconcerned, that in itself casts a whole lot of doubt on it.

The method for controlling dice seems pretty simple. Why does it take a year of practice? And why is some fat slob naturally gifted at tossing some dice in a 45 degree arc? It's called a hot streak. Variance.

[Villiam]

It isn't a casino concern. But just like anything, if you are winning, they hawk you and screw with you. And in some extreme cases, may even boot you for no other reason than being lucky. When casinos have known about this "method" for years, and are wholly unconcerned, that in itself casts a whole lot of doubt on it.

The method for controlling dice seems pretty simple. Why does it take a year of practice? And why is some fat slob naturally gifted at tossing some dice in a 45 degree arc? It's called a hot streak. Variance.

When did anyone suggest that the method was simple??? Is that your assessment? That's why I said someone should do a report on the book instead of just offering up whatever as conclusions....

I've already detailed much of it. It has nothing to do with streak play or 45 degree arcs.

The only thing you said that was right was the first three sentences. Perhaps the fourth comes into play assuming one can't just get "occasionally lucky" at multiple houses to get by. The potential for exposure is pretty readily acknowledgeable without a lot of cover I would think, which would increase variance.

[Blitzkrieg]

Yes, I'm saying it doesn't work. I recently watched a Breaking Vegas documentary about Dom Legregio or whatever and Frank Scobolete or whatever. At the end, Dom's a bit pissed off for getting harassed by the dealer and a suit. So he throws a $100 on hard 10 (why not a $10,000?). Of course he rolls it (why not just roll it everytime?). I've briefly talked to this Scobelete guy. I don't buy one thing he says and I don't think he's really an AP. He's a writer writing stories to subsidize his gambling. Does he know some people who hit positive variance? Probably. The theory of dice control may be sound in a controlled environment, without hitting the back wall.

Allow me to correct you Boz. It was a hard ten "hoppin" $100 bet! Hard Ten Hop! I bet you've never said that phrase before. Which if he brought the bet down after rolling hard ten, would be $3100 being returned to the player on the hop bet. Dom would NOT have made a $10,000 hard ten hop bet because the casino has a limit on payouts, Dom knows that. What you just said is how I can tell you do not play craps in the casino. An AP knows the rules to the games and what they can and cannot do before the battle begins.

[Boz]

Allow me to correct you Boz. It was a hard ten "hoppin" $100 bet! Hard Ten Hop! I bet you've never said that phrase before. Which if he brought the bet down after rolling hard ten, would be $3100 being returned to the player on the hop bet. Dom would NOT have made a $10,000 hard ten hop bet because the casino has a limit on payouts, Dom knows that. What you just said is how I can tell you do not play craps in the casino. An AP knows the rules to the games and what they can and cannot do before the battle begins.

Well, yeah you're right, I don't play dice because it can't be beat. How do you know what the limit on payouts was? And it obviously wasn't my point to make a mathematically egregious decision. It was to bet the max whether that be $101 or a million, and to bet it every roll since he can apparently roll what he wanted on command. How dice control hypothetically is supposed to work wasn't even portrayed that way in the documentary. And I assume that documentary was based on fact or a book. You don't bet a hard 10. That's not how it works, unless he has nearly a 20% over the house to begin with.

[Blitzkrieg]

Well, yeah you're right, I don't play dice because it can't be beat. How do you know what the limit on payouts was? And it obviously wasn't my point to make a mathematically egregious decision. It was to bet the max whether that be $101 or a million, and to bet it every roll since he can apparently roll what he wanted on command. How dice control hypothetically is supposed to work wasn't even portrayed that way in the documentary. And I assume that documentary was based on fact or a book. You don't bet a hard 10. That's not how it works, unless he has nearly a 20% over the house to begin with.

I asked a craps dealer many years ago and they informed me that there are payout limits at craps. As far as what the table limits were when he made that bet, it doesn't matter. Lorrigio would have NEVER made a $10K hop bet to begin with. No player is going to roll what they want to every time on command on a craps table, I don't care who they are.

[Boz]

I asked a craps dealer many years ago and they informed me that there are payout limits at craps. As far as what the table limits were when he made that bet, it doesn't matter. Lorrigio would have NEVER made a $10K hop bet to begin with. No player is going to roll what they want to every time on command on a craps table, I don't care who they are.

So basically, you had as much knowledge about the payout limits as I did? Why challenge it then? Did you honestly believe I meant he should take less than 30x odds?

YES, NO PLAYER IS GOING TO ROLL WHAT THEY WANT! That was a major problem with the documentary and placing the bet in general. Not even sure what we're arguing about.

Maybe you think dice control works. OK, I don't really want to debate. But there's obviously nothing wrong with just a few of the facts I use to make my judgment. A stupid TV show doesn't prove it doesn't work. I've already stated it hasn't been proved either way.

[Blitzkrieg]

So basically, you had as much knowledge about the payout limits as I did? Why challenge it then? Did you honestly believe I meant he should take less than 30x odds?

YES, NO PLAYER IS GOING TO ROLL WHAT THEY WANT! That was a major problem with the documentary and placing the bet in general. Not even sure what we're arguing about.

Maybe you think dice control works. OK, I don't really want to debate. But there's obviously nothing wrong with just a few of the facts I use to make my judgment. A stupid TV show doesn't prove it doesn't work. I've already stated it hasn't been proved either way.

No. It was a documentary video and all of the table game information is not going to be available Boz. The essence of making that $100 hop bet showed how the shooter was dialed in and fucked off the house one last time with a nice hit, on demand. I could tell that the nature of the bet in itself went right over your head judging from your response that he should have bet $10K. Your not a craps player as you stated and craps has a language to itself that is unique to the game. I was right in saying that you've never played the game before. I could tell by your response. Players do roll what they want to in craps, I see it all the time. Even on demand at times. You've never been around a craps table long enough because you would see it to. I do think dice control works and they can be influenced.

[Boz]

No player is going to roll what they want to every time on demand

Players do roll what they want to in craps, I see it all the time. Even on demand at times.

You just keep shifting your viewpoint so you can argue for no apparent reason. This makes you a shifty character. Yeah, they roll what they want 1/36 times. I stand by everything I said. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess I don't play dice.

[Boz]

Not even sure what we're arguing about. I don't really want to debate.

you...argue for no apparent reason.

There is no need to discuss this any further.

Clearly, I don't disagree.

[zengrifter]

Absolutely not. The biggest proof that it works is that it hasn't been proved not to work.

The biggest negative for me is that Stanford Wong, after authoring a book and endless practicing, perfecting the skill or so he thought, and even challenging a consortium of card counters in a well structured and publicized bet, and winning it... would ultimately come to denounce it.

[Boz]

The biggest negative for me is that Stanford Wong, after authoring a book and endless practicing, perfecting the skill or so he thought, and even challenging a consortium of card counters in a well structured and publicized bet, and winning it... would ultimately come to denounce it.

I didn't keep up with that. I still thought he was the one reputable guy on board with the whole idea. I know him and the Wizard of Odds 69ed each other once, so I thought the Wizard might be a fan of dice control too. But I never got the impression the Wizard actually knew anything about dice or did any real study. In my mind, I'd call a Wong denouncement proof that it doesn't work.

[Blitzkrieg]

You just keep shifting your viewpoint so you can argue for no apparent reason. This makes you a shifty character. Yeah, they roll what they want 1/36 times. I stand by everything I said. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess I don't play dice.

I said not every time. But I also said that you will see people call out 1 roll bets and they will hit it whether they have the dice in their hands or not. Scoblete refers to them as random rollers. You probably haven't hung around a craps table long enough to see it, it happens every day of every hour. I could tell you were not a dice player the second you opened up your mouth.

[Boz]

I said not every time. But I also said that you will see people call out 1 roll bets and they will hit it whether they have the dice in their hands or not. Scoblete refers to them as random rollers. You probably haven't hung around a craps table long enough to see it, it happens every day of every hour. I could tell you were not a dice player the second you opened up your mouth.

Why did you delete the post where you said "There is no reason to discuss this any further"? I already quoted it in another post. Did you decide there was a reason to discuss it further?

I know you said that people can't call a roll every time. You also said they can do so on demand. I quoted these contradictory remarks as well. How you suppose these people know when their magical gift has turned itself on and off is beyond me. I also don't care for it to be explained by that hack Scoblete or some AP bet welcher. You could tell I don't roll dice because I'm actually an AP, I don't welch on bets, and I don't believe in voodoo. Congratulations on top-notch guesswork. Your ability to randomly guess that someone who apparently doesn't play craps in fact doesn't play it proves dice control works, right? Is that the point of repeatedly saying it? I don't play baccarat either. I suppose card-counting works at that game too, and I wouldn't know since I have no experience. You know how many idiots have sat down at a blackjack table, aghast at my basic strategy moves, who have "been playing blackjack for 25 years"? I guess Thorpe was wrong about hitting soft 18 after all--experience is what you need to beat blackjack, not common sense or math. Gambling is your hobby or addiction. You're no AP. APs don't make large -EV bets, welch on them, and reject data. You're a ploppy, aren't you? Exactly the type that thinks they know what they are doing, gets angry easily, and that I immediately recognize and find a new table before things get uncivil. Aren't you? If you're a ploppy, why are you trying to school me? I don't care if you believe in dumbass things and I'm not here to convince you otherwise; your terrible bets put money in my pocket. But for anyone wondering, this type of behavior is why I generally hate ploppies.