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Thread: ZG Goes to Blackhawk PART 1-3

  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katz View Post
    All 3 sessions you seem to have been 'lucky'. Please give us more on this 'luck' factor.
    Based on #hands, net-effective spread and rules, I would estimate that my EV for those four sessions was maybe $700.
    Therefore I was just as likely to lose $1400 as win $2800, I think.
    I am open to alternate analysis on this.
    Last edited by zengrifter; January 5th, 2015 at 06:51 AM. Reason: typo
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Does anyone have any questions about what I was doing in the first three sessions and/or the efficacy of my approach(s)?
    You mentioned that Sal only pulled out $500 starting out but he was betting hands of $100 to where he would be possibly be spreading out to three hands. What was the overall bankroll for the Gorilla BP? If things didn't go as planned in that first session, at what point monetarily speaking was Sal supposed to cut and run? $500 seems a bit underfunded as far as a buy-in goes if a player is going to be spreading out to 3 hands of $100 if things didn't go your way up front. A cash in like that will probably be under the radar of the casino but it still seems short to me. What card counting system was Sal using and did you orchestrate what he would bet and do at all times? Did you two split the winnings?

  3. #18

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    Can you describe what was going on in your mind as you discovered that the dealer was only doing a single pass with the cards when they would reshuffle? How ten rich were the sections of cards that you cut to... did you notice any extreme negative counts during play where you would glance over at the discard tray to purposely remember those particular sections to cut to? What was your thought process and did the results meet your expectations for this type of shuffle tracking?

  4. #19

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    How did your buddy Sal end up doing in his poker tournament? Do you ever play the game of BJ while inebriated (either drunk or stoned)? More so, can you play the game of BJ while inebriated and still maintain a high level of play?

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    You mentioned that Sal only pulled out $500 starting out but he was betting hands of $100 to where he would be possibly be spreading out to three hands. What was the overall bankroll for the Gorilla BP?
    We were playing to a $30,000 BR.
    I estimate that our bet2bank calibration put us at about .60 Kelly and a RoR of about 5%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    $500 seems a bit underfunded as far as a buy-in goes if a player is going to be spreading out to 3 hands of $100 if things didn't go your way up front. A cash in like that will probably be under the radar of the casino but it still seems short to me.
    One of the things I like to do is make relatively small buyins - this enhances the appearance that I'm just taking a shot, and if I lose multiple small buyins that I'm steaming.
    At the Reserve play we actually made two $500 buyins and Sal looked pretty lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    If things didn't go as planned in that first session, at what point monetarily speaking was Sal supposed to cut and run?
    I did not have any particular stop-loss or stop-win, if that's what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    What card counting system was Sal using and did you orchestrate what he would bet and do at all times? Did you two split the winnings?
    Sal was not counting, he was solely reliant on my signals.
    Our split formula is proprietary, but this first session was really a demo of sorts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    Can you describe what was going on in your mind as you discovered that the dealer was only doing a single pass with the cards when they would reshuffle? How ten rich were the sections of cards that you cut to... did you notice any extreme negative counts during play where you would glance over at the discard tray to purposely remember those particular sections to cut to? What was your thought process and did the results meet your expectations for this type of shuffle tracking?
    Cut-offs tracking ('COT') is one of my strongest moves. I thought it was a real lucky break that my first play in BH was good for COT - simple shuffles that afford COT play are relatively few and far between. With COT I am only concerned with the ending count and the cards still behind the shuffle card. With COT a mediocre/poor-pene 6D game is instantly converted to a 3-4D game with 90%+ pene, and a plus count OTT 2/3 of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    Do you ever play the game of BJ while inebriated (either drunk or stoned)? More so, can you play the game of BJ while inebriated and still maintain a high level of play?
    Never "drunk" per'se, but I will drink Malibu rocks on infrequent occasions when I want to appear inebriated. As for "stoned", I've been using cannabis for decades, but I do not regularly play on it.

    As an aside, I have played high on LSD a few times, an ongoing experiment, if you will, and I have experienced some amazing things, but it's certainly NOT my best game LOL. There is however an emerging body of research that 'micro-doses' of LSD can be true-performance enhancing and I will undoubtedly give that an experimental try in the future.

    Notwithstanding, I am serious about getting the money, so I generally play fresh and ready.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  6. #21
    Join Date
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    How many BJ joints worth playing in are there in Blackhawk? What does that translate into number of tables available? Are they open 24/7, 7/7? How does the heat level compare with Lost Wages? Numbers of suits around? Is it safe in the streets at night? Street gangs of punks? Hookers, dope dealers and junkies pestering you?
    Last edited by zengrifter; January 5th, 2015 at 06:52 AM. Reason: format

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katz View Post
    How many BJ joints worth playing in are there in Blackhawk?
    Nine.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    We were playing to a $30,000 BR.
    I estimate that our bet2bank calibration put us at about .60 Kelly and a RoR of about 5%.


    One of the things I like to do is make relatively small buyins - this enhances the appearance that I'm just taking a shot, and if I lose multiple small buyins that I'm steaming.
    At the Reserve play we actually made two $500 buyins and Sal looked pretty lucky.


    I did not have any particular stop-loss or stop-win, if that's what you mean.


    Sal was not counting, he was solely reliant on my signals.
    Our split formula is proprietary, but this first session was really a demo of sorts.


    Cut-offs tracking ('COT') is one of my strongest moves. I thought it was a real lucky break that my first play in BH was good for COT - simple shuffles that afford COT play are relatively few and far between. With COT I am only concerned with the ending count and the cards still behind the shuffle card. With COT a mediocre/poor-pene 6D game is instantly converted to a 3-4D game with 90%+ pene, and a plus count OTT 2/3 of the time.


    Never "drunk" per'se, but I will drink Malibu rocks on infrequent occasions when I want to appear inebriated. As for "stoned", I've been using cannabis for decades, but I do not regularly play on it.

    As an aside, I have played high on LSD a few times, an ongoing experiment, if you will, and I have experienced some amazing things, but it's certainly NOT my best game LOL. There is however an emerging body of research that 'micro-doses' of LSD can be true-performance enhancing and I will undoubtedly give that an experimental try in the future.

    Notwithstanding, I am serious about getting the money, so I generally play fresh and ready.
    So was your buddy able to pick up all, if not most of your signals when you two were playing at the BJ table together? The Cut-off tracking technique has me interested. If a player finds a game where the dealers are doing a single pass on the shuffle and their playing a 6D game and lets say that the counter ends up with a +10 count, would the person getting the cut card want to cut to the cards that didn't come into play, know that a rich portion of the deck could come into play starting a new shoe? Is that the logic behind COT? What if the ending count was a -10 or higher after the cut card gets dealt out while using the COT technique?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    So was your buddy able to pick up all, if not most of your signals when you two were playing at the BJ table together? The Cut-off tracking technique has me interested. If a player finds a game where the dealers are doing a single pass on the shuffle and their playing a 6D game and lets say that the counter ends up with a +10 count, would the person getting the cut card want to cut to the cards that didn't come into play, know that a rich portion of the deck could come into play starting a new shoe? Is that the logic behind COT? What if the ending count was a -10 or higher after the cut card gets dealt out while using the COT technique?
    I am sure you know the answer to that question!!

    CP
    "Midwest Masters Of Advantage", "Strength and Honor."

  10. #25
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    Blackhawk is a lovely place for a vacation. The motorcycle riding is second to non. Any outdoor stuff is great. Even in the winter ski resorts are close. If you have never been there.....GO!
    Free rooms are quite easy to come by...

    Just don't be piggish at the tables and they will treat you like the proverbial golden nugget.

    Machinist
    So look buddy it's nothing personal, but either your the unluckiest person in the world or your stealing from me. Either way............ I WANT NO PART OF YOU!!!!!! NEVER!!!!

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    So was your buddy able to pick up all, if not most of your signals when you two were playing at the BJ table together? The Cut-off tracking technique has me interested. If a player finds a game where the dealers are doing a single pass on the shuffle and their playing a 6D game and lets say that the counter ends up with a +10 count, would the person getting the cut card want to cut to the cards that didn't come into play, know that a rich portion of the deck could come into play starting a new shoe? Is that the logic behind COT? What if the ending count was a -10 or higher after the cut card gets dealt out while using the COT technique?
    1. Some two-pass shuffles also lend to COT.
    2. The key is that the cut-offs behind the shuffle card remain intact to the shuffle (ie, not broken up)
    3. We care not if the ending shoe count at shuffle-card is plus, minus, or neutral.

    COT from ZGI page 12 -

    Did you ever get into shuffle- tracking?

    I do use the simpler forms, mostly thanks to Mason Malmuth’s Blackjack Essays which contains
    three chapters on the simplest form of shuffle-tracking, which is called ‘cutoff tracking.’

    Cut-off tracking in shoe games is relatively easy to do. The hard part is finding games with shuffle
    procedures that leave the cut-offs - the undealt cards left behind the shuffle card - in a relative
    ‘cohesion-dilute’ and exploitable as such. Such games are few and far between, but they are out
    there, once you know what to look for. Last year I noticed close to a dozen or so games between
    Southern California and Southern Nevada that were exploitable with variants of the relatively
    simple cut-off tracking method.

    So, what’s the gist of it?

    Once you know how to recognize a shuffle that leaves the cut-offs in a proximate but diluted
    cohesiveness, all that is required is to secure the cut card, and proceed to cut those cards to either
    the top or the bottom of the post-shuffled stack - then you make a simple count conversion - the
    result being that an otherwise mediocre six or eight deck game with poor penetration is instantly
    transformed into a three or five deck game with 90% penetration and a starting plus count twothirds
    of the time!

    Summary of Cut-off Tracking by Sonny from BJINFO Knowledge Base -

    Cut-off tracking consists of retaining the count at the end of the shoe (after the final round has been played and the cards are about to be shuffled). Assuming a balanced count is employed, the remaining unseen cards (hereafter referred to as the “cut-off slug”) must therefore have a value that is equal to the running count but with the sign reversed. For example, if the running count is -7 at the end of the shoe, then the cut-off slug contains cards that will sum to +7 in order to assure a zero final count. That means the cut-off slug is made up of mostly low cards which are bad for the player.

    The next step in tracking the shuffle is calculating the “average count density” of the used cards in the discard tray (hereafter “discards”). In the above example, assuming a six-deck game with five dealt, you would figure that the discarded 5 decks with a count of -7 would average a count of -7 / 5 = -1.4 per deck. If we then shuffle our cut-off slug with one of the discard decks, we would estimate a count of 7 – 1.4 = 5.6 for the new two-deck shuffled slug. We could then cut these cards to the bottom of the shoe, adjust our starting running count, and play with a significant advantage in a four-deck game. We are essentially using the cut card to “short the deck” of cards we don’t want. Similarly, this method can also be used to cut good cards do the top of the shoe.

    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by creeping panther View Post
    I am sure you know the answer to that question!!

    CP
    It seems like I answered my own question but I have never heard much about COT, or looked at COT in a 6D game in that manner because I don't play 6D that often. A thing to really consider that I can see would be how the dealer plugs the unused cards back into the decks, or are they just placing ALL the unused cards on top or bottom of the decks in the discard tray. It seems like there could be a lot potential with such tracking like at the beginning of a new 6D shoe... where maybe a counter gets a high negative count within 1-1.5 decks and he/she could remember the placement of that rich zone, then using the information (the count) at the end when the cut card comes out. If a 6D shoe ended on a moderately high positive count with the player remembering the zone of rich cards in that 1-1.5 deck zone... it seems like an edge that could be worth going after if it can be exploited properly. Although I would feel better about trying it out in an environment other than the casino to experiment and to lower potential risk if I decide to play 6D.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    Blackhawk is a lovely place for a vacation. The motorcycle riding is second to non. Any outdoor stuff is great. Even in the winter ski resorts are close. If you have never been there.....GO!
    Free rooms are quite easy to come by...

    Just don't be piggish at the tables and they will treat you like the proverbial golden nugget.

    Machinist
    If I ever do get a chance to go to Blackhawk I'll definitely stop at the casino, and the dispensary. It would also be nice to hit slopes and do a little snowboarding, it's been years since I've done any snowboarding and the last time... my buddy got arrested for a DUI for sleeping in his truck while the engine was running so he could stay warm while he was drunk.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    A thing to really consider that I can see would be how the dealer plugs the unused cards back into the decks, or are they just placing ALL the unused cards on top or bottom of the decks in the discard tray. It seems like there could be a lot potential with such tracking like at the beginning of a new 6D shoe... where maybe a counter gets a high negative count within 1-1.5 decks and he/she could remember the placement of that rich zone, then using the information (the count) at the end when the cut card comes out. If a 6D shoe ended on a moderately high positive count with the player remembering the zone of rich cards in that 1-1.5 deck zone...
    Yes, but not remembering their location, instead manually cutting them to the top or bottom of the pack.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  15. #30
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    You didn't make a pit stop in Paonia to visit the birthplace of Terence McKenna?
    Truth demands knowledge. Deceit demands faith.

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