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Thread: Maryland Cops: Card Counting Is Illegal -VIDEO

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    We are not talking about theories. It is clear that card counting gives the player an advantage over the house it would not otherwise have. It may be true that this fact actually gives encouragement to players to patronize casinos and that the overall result is a net gain to the casinos, but that is only conjecture, not a proven fact.
    It IS a PROVEN fact that BJ's popularity stems directly from the FACT that it can be beaten. - source: Bill Zender
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
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    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    It IS a PROVEN fact that BJ's popularity stems directly from the FACT that it can be beaten. - source: Bill Zender
    Zender, casino consultant?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    It IS a PROVEN fact that BJ's popularity stems directly from the FACT that it can be beaten. - source: Bill Zender
    So show me-- where and how is it proven. He simply makes the statement, but fails to show the proof. I already said that it offers an encouragement to gamblers to play it, but that alone does not mean that it would not otherwise be popular. It is scientifically proven that card counters can beat casinos, but it has not been scientifically proven that Blackjack would cease to be popular if card counters disappeared. It's your opinion... and Bill Zender's opinion... ZG, not a proven fact. It's also the rallying cry of card counters everywhere, who of course, want to justify their existence in hopes for a lessening of surveillance and trespass measures taken against them. Tell it like it is!
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    So show me-- where and how is it proven. He simply makes the statement, but fails to show the proof. I already said that it offers an encouragement to gamblers to play it, but that alone does not mean that it would not otherwise be popular. It is scientifically proven that card counters can beat casinos, but it has not been scientifically proven that Blackjack would cease to be popular if card counters disappeared. It's your opinion... and Bill Zender's opinion... ZG, not a proven fact. It's also the rallying cry of card counters everywhere, who of course, want to justify their existence in hopes for a lessening of surveillance and trespass measures taken against them. Tell it like it is!
    not sure if stuff is proven scientifically. science folks use the scientific method:

    from http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/scientific_method.html :
    "Steps of the Scientific Method
    Observation/Research
    Hypothesis
    Prediction
    Experimentation
    Conclusion"

    of course you know that and you know it only takes one negative outcome to ruin a hypothesis in general. so i think nothing is ever really proven scientifically, just hypothesized until someone comes along and disproves the hypothesis by coming up with an experiment that finds negative conclusive results, sorta thing.
    so but just me maybe, what i think it is, is that Zender and others who believe that or hypothesize that counters and advantage players are good for casinos are really just speaking from their wealth of observation/research, the hypothesis they have arrived at, the predictions they have made and the re-observation. so is that the way it really is? meh, maybe not but far as they know their hypothesis hasn't been disproved sorta thing, and they are experts in their field who really care, sorta thing. it's business to them, bottom-line dollars sorta thing, reputation and the like, sorta stuff. so, just me, those folks aren't just talking outa their a$$.
    anyway, the idea that advantage players are a good thing for casinos is to me similar to the idea that the existence of top predators in a natural environment are indicators that, that environment is a healthy vigorous life supporting environment that will likely continue to thrive, sorta thing.
    and tinker with an vital, healthy environment to much or in an incorrect way and that environment can go down the tubes, sorta thing. pretty much that's i think what Zender is alluding to.
    best regards,
    mr fr0g MMOA honorary predator
    STRENGTH - HONOR - HEART
    that's my take on it your mileage may vary.
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  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    So show me-- where and how is it proven.
    Didn't Thorp and other early contributors to the game of BJ prove it? As far as increasing the players edge with the use of basic strategy combined with card counting, less players on the tables, favorable penetration, and favorable rules like S17 and surrender options. Granted that basic strategy players and counters can still lose but otherwise they should have an advantage over the players who are not using basic strategy or counting cards. The proof should be in the players long-term results as in winning vs. losing and if they have the ability to walk away from the BJ table a winner.
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; November 4th, 2014 at 12:51 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagefr0g View Post
    not sure if stuff is proven scientifically. science folks use the scientific method:

    from http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/scientific_method.html :
    "Steps of the Scientific Method
    Observation/Research
    Hypothesis
    Prediction
    Experimentation
    Conclusion"

    of course you know that and you know it only takes one negative outcome to ruin a hypothesis in general. so i think nothing is ever really proven scientifically, just hypothesized until someone comes along and disproves the hypothesis by coming up with an experiment that finds negative conclusive results, sorta thing.
    so but just me maybe, what i think it is, is that Zender and others who believe that or hypothesize that counters and advantage players are good for casinos are really just speaking from their wealth of observation/research, the hypothesis they have arrived at, the predictions they have made and the re-observation. so is that the way it really is? meh, maybe not but far as they know their hypothesis hasn't been disproved sorta thing, and they are experts in their field who really care, sorta thing. it's business to them, bottom-line dollars sorta thing, reputation and the like, sorta stuff. so, just me, those folks aren't just talking outa their a$$.
    anyway, the idea that advantage players are a good thing for casinos is to me similar to the idea that the existence of top predators in a natural environment are indicators that, that environment is a healthy vigorous life supporting environment that will likely continue to thrive, sorta thing.
    and tinker with an vital, healthy environment to much or in an incorrect way and that environment can go down the tubes, sorta thing. pretty much that's i think what Zender is alluding to.
    The truth is that while the idea that "Blackjack can be beaten" adds to the popularity of the game, and may even be responsible for it being popular at all, the casinos realize, too, that it is in their best interest to stamp out card counters whenever and wherever they have that opportunity. The mere fact that casinos actively pursue the barring of card counters is also a boost to the overall perception that the game can be beaten and works to the advantage of the casinos. So the fact that card counters and other skilled players exist, coupled with the active and serious pursuit of Advantage Players (letting the public know that advantage play is possible and that the players are being pursued and barred), together add to the popularity of the game. This is why every casino where Zender consults still pursues the barring of advantage players with great zeal despite Zender's seemingly contradictory statement. In actuality, I have no doubt that Zender also realizes the benefit to the bottom line of casinos in barring advantage players and so advised the casinos, because he and casinos both know that there will forever be a new wave of real and wannabe advantage players strutting onto the gaming stage. And so, the game continues, the game of catching and barring those whose presence contribute to the popularity of the game, and whose barring reinforces in people's minds that the game is still quite vulnerable. It's a two edged sword-- both the existence of and the elimination of card counters contributes to the game's continued success. Casinos know they will never catch everyone, but if they had a chance to make it a "cheat" in the eyes of the law, I wonder seriously if they would. Zender seems to be aligning himself somewhat with the advantage play community when he makes such remarks, but in fact, he is no friend of advantage players. He works actively to crush the advantage play community. You doubters may want to attend his upcoming seminar:

    Monday, November 17, 2014 Co-Presented by Bill Zender and Eliot Jacobson, Ph.D.
    In this ground-breaking one-day seminar, advantage play experts Bill Zender and Eliot Jacobson will cover a wide range of methods that advanced advantage players are using to legally beating casino table games. You will learn the games they are targeting and how they're doing it. You will learn to identify, protect and defend your table games against the strategies and tactics used by modern advantage players. http://www.billzender.com/

    I hope this clears up any misperception anyone may have had about what I was trying to say. I've heard too many APs voice the opinion, "Why don't they just leave us alone; after all, we're good for the bottom line."
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  7. #37

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    Or you could do what Don Johnson did and negotiate for a better game.

  8. #38
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    Zender said Blackjack can be beaten. "THE BIG WHEEL CAN BE BEATEN." ~ Katz

  9. #39
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    Default Stupidity

    Sometimes cops have a way of dreaming up the laws as they go and I'm sort of leaning toward dragging him off and detaining him as assault and the cops siding with those whom they answer to, whether directly or indirectly. Signing anything? Out of the question. No one can legally force you to sign anything, anything at all. I would have wanted them to beat the crap out of me like the casino security did on that whole family at Harrah's AC!Hahahaa Casinos are going to get a bad rap if they continue to beat on the customers and harass them if they win! Business is sparse enough without the general public thinking the casinos motto is, "If we can't beat the shit out of you, then we're going to beat the shit out of you!" and "Anyone that looks like they might win or are winning will be shown the door!" A whole lot of the general public doesn't have much love for the casino industry as it is.

    The truth is that card-counting is beneficial to the casino and they ought to take that boy down to their steakhouse and buy him a dinner! In the overall the vast majority of card counters fail due to being undertrained, underfinanced, etc. so in the overall casinos make out. It's sort of like the difference between being the best tennis player in the high school compared to being one of the best tennis players at Wimbledon, there's a little bit of a difference. He's no threat to them whatsoever at a 1-4 spread and the whole thing is ridiculous. Was this a publicity stunt on the part of Maryland Live to show how they don't like those evil card counters? If they rousted this guy over a 1-4 spread how many nonAP serious cash cows will they show the door over their fear and paranoia? Are they going to run anyone out the door that has a basic strategy card memorized? Casinos give more away in a day as promos than what a couple of card counters might get out of them. How long did the casino detain him with a dozen or so people involved all on the clock... that alone adds up to more than the scraps he was hustling for. Casinos spend money to be stupid and for the sake of stupidity. Spending $10 to make sure no one walks out with an extra $1 just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.


  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarzan View Post


    The truth is that card-counting is beneficial to the casino and they ought to take that boy down to their steakhouse and buy him a dinner! In the overall the vast majority of card counters fail due to being undertrained, underfinanced, etc. so in the overall casinos make out. It's sort of like the difference between being the best tennis player in the high school compared to being one of the best tennis players at Wimbledon, there's a little bit of a difference. He's no threat to them whatsoever at a 1-4 spread and the whole thing is ridiculous. Are they going to run anyone out the door that has a basic strategy card memorized? Casinos give more away in a day as promos than what a couple of card counters might get out of them. Casinos spend money to be stupid and for the sake of stupidity. Spending $10 to make sure no one walks out with an extra $1 just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

    Just a comment because I agree with Tarzan wholeheartedly. I do NOT think all casinos have the same attitude. I know this old southern saying that "a pig gets fat; a hog gets slaughtered". I think there are some that have Zender's attitude and would let most of them play. I have a good friend/acquaintance that is in casino management. I will NOT name the casino but it is in Vegas. He barred a card counter while I was there but it was because the guy was not that good and was essentially asking for it. Ridiculous spreads. He specifically told me that he has no problem with someone making money card counting and playing his games. But he does have an objection to someone trying to be blatant about it and emptying the chip trays.........or "begging" to be caught. Some are obnoxious; some are not. They maintain their OWN database on computer (unrelated to Griffin or other sources) as to Advantage Players.........even caption them as such. But he will not bar those who "just make money" but are not greedy. He knows it's a tough game to count; not a big profit advantage. Their concentration is more on cheating; collusion and the like. That doesn't mean he doesn't KNOW who you are. Controls money with game rules and table limits. They just allow advantage players to play; but I guess they don't allow them to "rape" his shifts........LOL

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katz View Post
    "THE BIG WHEEL CAN BE BEATEN." ~ Katz
    Yes it can, exploiting select dealer signatures.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Yes it can, exploiting select dealer signatures.
    Plus betting on the joker or the logo,
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Plus betting on the joker or the logo,
    Are you the joker or are you just plain loco? Next you'll be shilling us a great new system for the slots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katz View Post
    Are you the joker or are you just plain loco? Next you'll be shilling us a great new system for the slots.
    You'll have to see Machinist for that.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Is there any update on this Justin Mills incident?

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