+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 21

Thread: Illustrious-18 Not So Illustrious

  1. #1

    Default Illustrious-18 Not So Illustrious

    The Not-So-Illustrious 18

    Source: AP Heat
    Illustrious: (1) clear, conspicuous, distinguished (2) famous, eminent, outstanding. – Webster’s
    The two most challenging tasks for a card counter are to keep a running count as the cards are dealt and to convert the running count to a true count at the start of each round. For games where no strategic decisions are made after the cards are dealt (like baccarat and side bets), the main purpose of the true count is to decide whether a wager should be placed. If the true count exceeds the trigger count, the AP makes the wager; otherwise he sits on his hands. A secondary purpose for the underfunded AP is to use the true count to help him determine the size of his wager. This is known as using the “Kelly Criterion.”

    [One method] to limit the amount of memorization is to understand that there is a natural ordering of the indices by the monetary value of each. Some are more important to learn than others. In this approach, the card counter should start with the most valuable index (which happens to be Insurance) and continue down the list, learning as many as he can. Such a complete list has never been published (as far as I know).

    MORE- http://apheat.net/2014/02/20/the-not-so-illustrious-18
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    1,505

    Default 18

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    The Not-So-Illustrious 18

    Source: AP Heat
    Illustrious: (1) clear, conspicuous, distinguished (2) famous, eminent, outstanding. – Webster’s
    The two most challenging tasks for a card counter are to keep a running count as the cards are dealt and to convert the running count to a true count at the start of each round. For games where no strategic decisions are made after the cards are dealt (like baccarat and side bets), the main purpose of the true count is to decide whether a wager should be placed. If the true count exceeds the trigger count, the AP makes the wager; otherwise he sits on his hands. A secondary purpose for the underfunded AP is to use the true count to help him determine the size of his wager. This is known as using the “Kelly Criterion.”

    [One method] to limit the amount of memorization is to understand that there is a natural ordering of the indices by the monetary value of each. Some are more important to learn than others. In this approach, the card counter should start with the most valuable index (which happens to be Insurance) and continue down the list, learning as many as he can. Such a complete list has never been published (as far as I know).

    MORE- http://apheat.net/2014/02/20/the-not-so-illustrious-18
    Amazing how a veteran can do all the above with no problem at all, like a machine.

    CP
    "Midwest Masters Of Advantage", "Strength and Honor."

  3. #3

    Default

    It has long been forgotten that well before (15 years) Don S., Lawrence Revere advocated the use of a short-list of indices, found in his seminal Playing BJ As A Business, as early as 1969. Even for his advanced mail-order counts he provided his short-list of 12 or so index departures, but he never advocated them as anything but a starting point for aspiring counters.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  4. #4

    Default

    Don Schlesinger does not even use the Hi-Lo count when playing, he uses the Revere Point Count. When instructing others how to gamble their money, one must walk the talk. A counter must use all weapons available to beat blackjack. Schlesinger's Illustrious 18 #1 ranking of using Hi-Lo for insurance purposes (especially at one and two deck games) does not serve counters well. The aces should be counted as low cards instead of high cards when insuring! I could go on and on, but blackjack card counting is so last century.
    JSTAT on casinos, poker, and blackjack/baccarat card counting strategies. Saying what needs to be said. @Casino_Examiner on Twitter

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    338

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JSTAT View Post
    Don Schlesinger does not even use the Hi-Lo count when playing, he uses the Revere Point Count. When instructing others how to gamble their money, one must walk the talk. A counter must use all weapons available to beat blackjack. Schlesinger's Illustrious 18 #1 ranking of using Hi-Lo for insurance purposes (especially at one and two deck games) does not serve counters well. The aces should be counted as low cards instead of high cards when insuring! I could go on and on, but blackjack card counting is so last century.
    JSTAT, it is not a big deal that Don does not play Hi-lo, nor use the illustrious 18 for which he is so closely associated with. It is not a case of not walking the talk. Don has publicly stated a number of times that he plays RPC, and uses 160+ index plays, because that is what he learned oh so many years ago. He doesn’t think he can ‘un-learn’ them at this point and since he plays so infrequently now, it would not be worth the effort to do so.

    He has stated that if he had it to do all over again, knowing what he now knows he would play hi-lo and just use the Ill 18. That really is not a case of not walking the talk. I have tried to draw him into some of the never-ending count debates to support my view on simplicity, but he usually refuses to be drawn in.

    Now on your final comment “blackjack card counting is so last century”: I used to get offended when those of you who have moved on to bigger and better things (including King James) would put down card counting and card counters, but I am over that. But just know that some of us like beating the casino’s with this good old fashion elementary method from the 20th century. This is the method that we choose. I have done some HCing and other techniques involving other games and I just prefer the simple CCing technique from last century. Of course, I put my own little slant on it with heavy exit strategies, and tracking multiple tables so I can directly jump to a better opportunity with only seconds of down time. This dramatically changes the true count frequencies in my favor and nearly doubles my advantage and win rates.

    Furthermore the fact that y'all (<- southern term ) that have moved on, have the industry all riled up thinking about these bigger and better techniques is good for us ‘salamanders’. (<- King James term ). There is less focus on us and our small advantage. We are free to settle into the casino’s comfort zone and receive less heat and attention, as long as we don’t get too greedy. So I thank you for that.
    Last edited by KewlJ; February 22nd, 2014 at 01:08 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    posting from Bethesda, MD
    Posts
    13,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KJ View Post
    JSTAT, it is not a big deal that Don does not play Hi-lo, nor use the illustrious 18 for which he is so closely associated with. It is not a case of not walking the talk. Don has publicly stated a number of times that he plays RPC, and uses 160+ index plays, because that is what he learned oh so many years ago. He doesn’t think he can ‘un-learn’ them at this point and since he plays so infrequently now, it would not be worth the effort to do so.

    He has stated that if he had it to do all over again, knowing what he now knows he would play hi-lo and just use the Ill 18. That really is not a case of not walking the talk. I have tried to draw him into some of the never-ending count debates to support my view on simplicity, but he usually refuses to be drawn in.

    Now on your final comment “blackjack card counting is so last century”: I used to get offended when those of you who have moved on to bigger and better things (including King James) would put down card counting and card counters, but I am over that. But just know that some of us like beating the casino’s with this good old fashion elementary method from the 20th century. This is the method that we choose. I have done some HCing and other techniques involving other games and I just prefer the simple CCing technique from last century. Of course, I put my own little slant on it with heavy exit strategies, and tracking multiple tables so I can directly jump to a better opportunity with only seconds of down time. This dramatically changes the true count frequencies in my favor and nearly doubles my advantage and win rates.

    Furthermore the fact that ‘you all’ (<- southern term ) that have moved on, have the industry all riled up thinking about these bigger and better techniques is good for us ‘salamanders’. (<- King James term ). There is less focus on us and our small advantage. We are free to settle into the casino’s comfort zone and receive less heat and attention, as long as we don’t get too greedy. So I thank you for that.
    I ran into a counter in Vegas last month who used Revere-14 with 72 index plays (he called them basic strategies). Zengrifter informed me this was officially called RAPC (revere advanced point count) 1973 edition. He tried to show me how he used word associations to memorize so many index plays. Even though he had identified himself as a card counter, he later told me he had not counted a game for 20 years. LOL His Dad owned a big construction company which built many of the casinos in Vegas.

    He told me he was playing at the El Cortez one day when after he had only played a few hands, he got the tap. He had played some index play like doubling down on a 7 or not splitting a pair of aces, I don't remember. He was so PO-ed he told the suit that they could not possibly have known he was counting for the few hands he had played. Then he told the suit he had been making a living off the El Cortez every day or two years, and how clueless they were to give him the tap on this particular day. LOL It was great fun listening to his stories of Vegas gambling in the "old days."
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,050

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    The Not-So-Illustrious 18

    Source: AP Heat
    Illustrious: (1) clear, conspicuous, distinguished (2) famous, eminent, outstanding. – Webster’s
    The two most challenging tasks for a card counter are to keep a running count as the cards are dealt and to convert the running count to a true count at the start of each round. For games where no strategic decisions are made after the cards are dealt (like baccarat and side bets), the main purpose of the true count is to decide whether a wager should be placed. If the true count exceeds the trigger count, the AP makes the wager; otherwise he sits on his hands. A secondary purpose for the underfunded AP is to use the true count to help him determine the size of his wager. This is known as using the “Kelly Criterion.”

    [One method] to limit the amount of memorization is to understand that there is a natural ordering of the indices by the monetary value of each. Some are more important to learn than others. In this approach, the card counter should start with the most valuable index (which happens to be Insurance) and continue down the list, learning as many as he can. Such a complete list has never been published (as far as I know).

    MORE- http://apheat.net/2014/02/20/the-not-so-illustrious-18
    also from that source:
    "The quest for more knowledge is not just about the Illustrious 18; it’s about everything in life. Whether you are an AP, in game protection, or do something else in your professional life, learn more. Pick up a hobby and learn more about that too. Learn more about something today. Learn more every chance you get."
    anyone ever in this 'noble intellectual quest' learn anything about or consider ratting out former friends, colleagues?
    best regards,
    mr fr0g MMOA honorary predator
    STRENGTH - HONOR - HEART
    that's my take on it your mileage may vary.
    for senior citizen fuzzy count click link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrTiP4ZIUfI

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JSTAT View Post
    With Eliot Jacobson slamming Don Schlesinger for being anti-intellectual on his AP Heat blog, I decided enough is enough!
    I don't think that Eliot "slammed" DonS. He just said what many of us have said - that I-18 is not the end, just the beginning.
    How many indices do you recommend for JSTAT 10-ratio point count, for straight-up BJ?
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sagefr0g View Post
    ...anyone ever in this 'noble intellectual quest' learn anything about or consider ratting out former friends, colleagues?
    Who are you implying? Not Eliot, I hope? Or yes?
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JSTAT View Post
    With Eliot Jacobson slamming Don Schlesinger for being anti-intellectual on his AP Heat blog, I decided enough is enough!
    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    I don't think that Eliot "slammed" DonS. He just said what many of us have said - that I-18 is not the end, just the beginning.
    How many indices do you recommend for JSTAT 10-ratio point count, for straight-up BJ?
    Ps - How did you derive your JSTAT BJ indices?
    Did you sim or calc w/agebra? If sim, who's simware did you use?
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,050

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Who are you implying? Not Eliot, I hope? Or yes?
    what's it matter? just wondering about this 'noble intellectual quest for knowledge', is all and how it relates to stuff like ratting out friends, associates, former colleagues, sorta thing. i wonder what these noble intellectual quest guys eat for dinner anyway, paper back books, maybe? cannibalism maybe?
    best regards,
    mr fr0g MMOA honorary predator
    STRENGTH - HONOR - HEART
    that's my take on it your mileage may vary.
    for senior citizen fuzzy count click link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrTiP4ZIUfI

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    In the YO
    Posts
    15,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sagefr0g View Post
    i wonder what these noble intellectual quest guys eat for dinner anyway
    Name:  Frog-Panama-sm.jpg
Views: 1024
Size:  27.6 KB

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,050

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Katz View Post
    ooooohh, okey dokey..................., ribbit
    best regards,
    mr fr0g MMOA honorary predator
    STRENGTH - HONOR - HEART
    that's my take on it your mileage may vary.
    for senior citizen fuzzy count click link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrTiP4ZIUfI

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    midwest
    Posts
    533

    Default

    That's a pretty frog......don't stare into it's eyes.

    Mac
    So look buddy it's nothing personal, but either your the unluckiest person in the world or your stealing from me. Either way............ I WANT NO PART OF YOU!!!!!! NEVER!!!!

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    That's a pretty frog......don't stare into it's eyes.
    ... and don't look behind the curtain!
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

+ Reply to Thread

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts