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Thread: TARZAN's Count

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Tthree View Post
    My goodness gracious, I have never been so insulted in all my life!
    I shall not further cast my peals before the swine, you fat bumbling bee!
    LOL! I was just stating my opinion. Wish your good luck continues!

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by fat_bumblebee View Post
    You played in the 70s? How old are you?
    It was a former incarnation. Is age relevant anyway? Knowledge rules!
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarzan View Post
    "I don't know what their is to gain in Tarzans count." (I could do a "Don Schlesinger" right now! Spelling, grammar) There is a gain!

    -In the posted essay, "TC for determination for betting purposes" a clear increase is demonstrated in betting correlation. You can research the math of it or I can explain it to you in one word... displacement. If the deck has a percentage of high cards to low cards and you add a bunch of {6-9} did you increase EV or lower EV? If the deck has a given percentage of high cards to low cards and you take away a bunch of {6-9} the same ratio of high cards to low cards did you increase or lower the EV? Hint: If there are more {6-9}, then there are less {T} by volume in the deck. Start punching some values into a computer and you'll see this trend. Although there is a slight increase in betting correlation, the biggest gain is in playing efficiency.

    Let's elaborate on the increased playing efficiency of this system. The value of keycards to a given hand often has more effect on EOR than density of {T} with regard to playing decisions. How you may look at a 12vs2 is a lot different than the way I look at a 12vs2, for example. The index for 12vs2 using Hi-Lo is +3. This is based on density of {T} and nothing else because the (7-9) are not factored in at all using Hi-Lo. Removal of a random {6-9} from an even distribution of {6-9} has double the EOR value of a random {2-5} taken from an even distribution of {2-5}. With this being the case and since (7-9) are not factored in using Hi-Lo the index is often incorrect. The value of surplus of deficit {6-9} have considerably more effect than removal of {2-5} on this hand, approximately double the value.

    I'm going to do a little "cherry picking" and make a case in point comparison. I have a count of 20-0-8-8r @2, calculate the TC+4.6 and betting accordingly. A Hi-Lo player would call this TC+7, assuming an even distribution of {6-9} but assuming we both had the same bet out there of $1000 (which we wouldn't) and got a 12vs2, a crappy negative expectation hand that you don't want to see in any count, much less a positive count that you have a larger bet on the table. I
    would hit according to the index, losing about $205 and the Hi-Lo player would stand, losing about $360. Add in the betting correlation information and I would lose about $103 because my max bet would not be out there.

    Why does this happen? Because the surplus of {6-9} have more impact on the correct playing decision than the higher number of low cards compared to high cards. The much increases EOR values of the {6-9} grouping, particularly the (8,9) have more impact upon this hand than anything else. They are keycards for this hand completely ignored and unaccounted for in any way by the Hi-Lo player.



    "It's very different from what one would consider as the industry standard."

    -I didn't create the system to conform to any standard other than to be as efficient as possible. Griffin, Grosjean, Wong, Mitchell, Snyder, Schlesinger and others... Everything I do is based on elements from all of them, using their math and calculations and merely taking a different approach. For any of them to question what I do is to question themselves... they created me and all donated little pieces and elements of what I do! I developed my methods to suit my own tastes over the years and in that respect went off on various tangents of what I thought would enhance my skills for my personal use. I had no intent of ever sharing any of it, thinking it all as nothing more than just another counting method that would be considered perhaps too difficult, strange or obscure to anyone else. I thought it would look to others like it was dreamed up by the “Col. Kurtz” of blackjack and like in “Apocalypse Now” he seriously fell off the program and resorted to tactics that others would consider insane.


    "I really don't understand why cards in that grouping are assigned a tag value of .3"

    -Because that happens to be the closest approximation of EOR value for the grouping in terms of a fractional value, such as 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4 rather than tossing a numerical value out there that carries out to 6 or so decimal points or whatever it is. It is based on the calculated EOR of the grouping and not something I just dreamed up. I have talked about a perfect symmetry that occurs using these groupings having to do with EOR value of {2-5} = EOR value of {T} and how this forms a basis upon which you can calculate the other variables from there, which are the {6-9} and (A). This reminds me of people questioning basic strategy. It's not good enough to know the basic strategy move... they have to know why. You can explain until the cows come home or you can tell them, "STFU and memorize this basic strategy chart!"Hahaha Go dig around looking at EOR values in various publications and you will see lots of whys but knowing why won't help you learn the system any faster. It's a matter of following procedure more than worrying about the whys that have all been worked out for you. The math of it all checks out.




    Attachment 28224
    That was an awesome video demonstrating your skill. I was impressed. The way you counted down the deck in the video is one technique that I use to count down a single deck of cards. I tried to count down a deck using the same technique and got stumbled up because I realize that I am used to cancelling cards when I count since I use a more common approach. Now I understand why you assign the cards in the 6-9 grouping a value of .3, I did the math myself. How are you able to remember 4 different groupings that you are adjusting as the cards get played? What kind of technique for counting are you using which makes it easy for you, any tips? In the example you gave with the two hands; 12v2 with the count you provided of 20-0-8-8r@2 I can see why you would chose to hit, because the cards in the 6-9 grouping is in a surplus and it would seem that you would have a good chance of receiving a 6-9 thus improving a hard 12.

  4. #49

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    For a SD the totals will equal 16-5.3-16-4 I did two different drills since my last post by spreading out 4 total hands and flipping two cards over at a time and only counted the 6-9 grouping with the aces, I also took out 5-7 cards from the deck to check for accuracy at the end. I was able to count up those two groups with pretty good success and within a decent amount of time but I need to figure out a way to factor in the 2-5 and ten grouping without getting confused. Is there any type of cancelling method you use on the 2-5 and ten grouping to where you can concentrate more on the 6-9 and Ace grouping during play as far as keeping the count in your head?

  5. #50

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    I was able to finally count down several single decks successfully with your approach and knew the groupings of the remaining 5 cards. It seems easier for me to keep the 6-9 groupings tag value in my head as the primary count where I cancel the 2-5 grouping with the tens groupings as a type of secondary count, while noting the aces as seen. Overall I only keep two counts upstairs, I could work on speed and possibly an easier way of maintaining the count in my head but feel like I move pretty good through a SD considering how long I've been messing around with the count. Instead of going through the deck one card at a time I dealt out 3 player hands and 1 dealer hand, all face up with no playing decisions and counted that way. Technically, after seeing one card a player could give a breakdown of the entire deck composition. A player may also give an entire breakdown of the deck composition after seeing 1/4 of the deck, it really wouldn't matter how many cards get played or seen, by knowing the difference of the 10's grouping and 2-5 grouping and by knowing the value of the 6-9 grouping with aces at all times composition breakdown could be given at any moment during play. Does this type of counting handle better in pitch games vs. a 6D game?

  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by fat_bumblebee View Post
    You played in the 70s? How old are you?
    Don't ask, don't tell.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    The 7s are the most powerful, which is why I've often argued that ZEN with 7s side-count will trump HO-2 with the obligatory Ace side-count.
    But Zen already counts 7s. Why side counting 7s?

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by fat_bumblebee View Post
    But Zen already counts 7s. Why side counting 7s?
    For special plays that more precise knowledge of 7's offers.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    It was a former incarnation. Is age relevant anyway? Knowledge rules!
    : hence age rules
    best regards,
    mr fr0g MMOA honorary predator
    STRENGTH - HONOR - HEART
    that's my take on it your mileage may vary.
    for senior citizen fuzzy count click link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrTiP4ZIUfI

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    For special plays that more precise knowledge of 7's offers.
    Then every rank should be side counted.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by fat_bumblebee View Post
    Then every rank should be side counted.
    Some ranks play a greater role than others. You know that. I don't know the priority of the various ranks, but they do have different priorities. Why do you think that all systems count the low cards and the high cards? Of course, it's because they are the most important ranks to count. I suppose to prioritize the various ranks, you'd have to analyze all the ways each rank can be practically used in the different situations that arise. I say "practically" because you would not normally count a two or a three useful in hitting a hard 18, even though they would be useful if one did so successfully. Nobody hits a hard 18; it's practicable, but not practical. Never having made such an analysis, I have no idea what new sorts of indexes might be developed, and how the 7 differs from the 3, for example.

    PS-- Wouldn't that be a hoot! Having the ability to count all ranks? Not for me. I have trouble remembering what I had for breakfast.
    Last edited by aslan; September 15th, 2014 at 09:00 PM.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagefr0g View Post
    : hence age rules
    Ha In some things. I got into blackjack at an advanced age, and zengrifter, at an early age. Even though I am older than he, he has far more knowledge than I.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Ha In some things. I got into blackjack at an advanced age, and zengrifter, at an early age. Even though I am older than he, he has far more knowledge than I.
    same here on all that. me, heck i've forgotten more than i know and neither of those quantities is much, lol.
    but then there are always folks like zg and all who are willing to lend a helping hand.
    best regards,
    mr fr0g MMOA honorary predator
    STRENGTH - HONOR - HEART
    that's my take on it your mileage may vary.
    for senior citizen fuzzy count click link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrTiP4ZIUfI

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    The 7s are the most powerful, which is why I've often argued that ZEN with 7s side-count will trump HO-2 with the obligatory Ace side-count.
    Quote Originally Posted by fat_bumblebee View Post
    But Zen already counts 7s. Why side counting 7s?
    7s are the single most valuable card for bivaluate adjustment play - what Sklansky calls a "keycard" - excess 7s will bust some stiffs and make others.
    The modest main count reckoning will not otherwise identify key departures from both BS and index play.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by fat_bumblebee View Post
    Then every rank should be side counted.
    Again, read Griffin, Humble, Mitchell, etc. -- 7s outrank all the others for boosting PE.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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