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Thread: Edge Sorting at Casino Games

  1. #1

    Default Mystery Solved: Phil Ivey Used Edge Sorting at Baccarrat

    One of the world’s top gamblers won £7.8 million in a game of chance by ‘reading’ the backs of the cards, claim the owners of Britain’s oldest casino, who are refusing to pay out. Phil Ivey, dubbed ‘the Tiger Woods of poker’, is understood to have exploited tiny flaws in the card design during a game of punto banco, a type of baccarat based purely on luck.

    He insists he did nothing illegal, however, and is suing Mayfair club Crockfords in the High Court in what is expected to be the biggest legal battle in casino history. The Mail on Sunday, which revealed last October that Mr Ivey’s winnings had been withheld, understands the cards were flawed because of a mistake during the cutting process at an overseas manufacturing plant.

    Crucially, it meant their geometric pattern was not symmetrical, though this would not have been noticeable to the untrained eye.
    Cards should look exactly the same if turned 180 degrees. If they do not, it allows so-called advantage players to use a system known as ‘playing the turn’.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2TpuaUV2S
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  2. #2
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    Default Edge Sorting at Casino Games

    Eliot Jacobson lists various games where edge-sorting could be useful --

    -------
    In recent years, there’s been a huge increase in the number of casino table games around the world that allow players to handle the cards. From the masses of high-limit baccarat “squeeze” games in Macau to the lower-limit poker derivative games in Vegas party pits, an increasing amount of players’ DNA can be found in our discard holders.

    Here is a complete list of my edge sorting articles:


    I wrote about the World Game Protection Conference in
    this post.

  3. #3

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    Mac, two questions:
    1. Have you used/been using and edge-sorting tactics?
    2. Is edge-sorting covered much in ExhibitCAA?
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Mac, two questions:
    1. Have you used/been using and edge-sorting tactics?
    2. Is edge-sorting covered much in ExhibitCAA?
    I have not used edge sorting yet. I have played with it a bit. I bought numerous decks from stores that had the flaws. I sorted and shuffled and called the cards 100%. It is amazing what a trained can see. I was a bit slow at it but with a few hrs of play, it's pretty easy.
    The real issue is finding a dealer that handles the cards perfectly every time. The other biggy is it requires a team, to lock the table down from poppies. I don't do teams. 1 partner possibly once in awhile.
    I guess you could do it by yourself if you got your own table, or late at night. It certainly is powerful for a number of games. But you really need to be organized.

    CAA, hmmmmmm I don't own the book myself, I have a few acquaintances that do. I don't recall it in the book. Pretty sure it isn't.

    Mac
    So look buddy it's nothing personal, but either your the unluckiest person in the world or your stealing from me. Either way............ I WANT NO PART OF YOU!!!!!! NEVER!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    I have not used edge sorting yet. I have played with it a bit. I bought numerous decks from stores that had the flaws. I sorted and shuffled and called the cards 100%. It is amazing what a trained can see. I was a bit slow at it but with a few hrs of play, it's pretty easy.
    The real issue is finding a dealer that handles the cards perfectly every time. The other biggy is it requires a team, to lock the table down from poppies. I don't do teams. 1 partner possibly once in awhile.
    I guess you could do it by yourself if you got your own table, or late at night. It certainly is powerful for a number of games. But you really need to be organized.

    CAA, hmmmmmm I don't own the book myself, I have a few acquaintances that do. I don't recall it in the book. Pretty sure it isn't.

    Mac
    I bet it did not take that long to trained the eye to see as you have enough time to spot it. Dealers will give you some time to think out your bet before pulling out the cards.

    In Ivey case, I believe the sorting was done as the game was in progress.
    See --> http://36casinogamblingtips.savyseph...dgesorting.htm

  6. #6

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    Ivey is back in the spotlight, it looks like other casinos want a piece of the pie. That's what the casinos get for their expertise in sloppiness. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...m-9257427.html I don't see how the casinos can call it cheating when everyone who played at those tables had the same advantage if they had a good eye.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    Ivey is back in the spotlight, it looks like other casinos want a piece of the pie. That's what the casinos get for their expertise in sloppiness. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...m-9257427.html I don't see how the casinos can call it cheating when everyone who played at those tables had the same advantage if they had a good eye.
    Ivey actually instructed the dealer to turn the 6-7-8-9 cards around, and he required of the casino that they use an auto-shuffler that doesn't flip cards around. It was all up front, not cheating... IF it was cheating they would have arrested the "colluding" dealer(s) and manager(s). In fact, the dealer(s) only accommodated Ivey's "superstitious" request to rotate the cards with full approval of house management. Sometimes casinos are bad losers to fair play.
    The lawsuit claims that Ivey and his companion instructed a dealer to flip cards in particular ways, depending on whether it was a desirable card in baccarat. The numbers 6, 7, 8 and 9 are considered good cards. Bad cards would be flipped in different directions, so that after several hands of cards, the good ones were arranged in a certain manner — with the irregular side of the card facing in a specific direction — that Ivey could spot when they came out of the dealer chute. The lawsuit claims Ivey wanted the cards shuffled by an automatic shuffling machine, which would not alter the way each card was aligned.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Ivey actually instructed the dealer to turn the 6-7-8-9 cards around, and he required of the casino that they use an auto-shuffler that doesn't flip cards around. It was all up front, not cheating... IF it was cheating they would have arrested the "colluding" dealer(s) and manager(s). In fact, the dealer(s) only accommodated Ivey's "superstitious" request to rotate the cards with full approval of house management. Sometimes casinos are bad losers to fair play.
    The lawsuit claims that Ivey and his companion instructed a dealer to flip cards in particular ways, depending on whether it was a desirable card in baccarat. The numbers 6, 7, 8 and 9 are considered good cards. Bad cards would be flipped in different directions, so that after several hands of cards, the good ones were arranged in a certain manner — with the irregular side of the card facing in a specific direction — that Ivey could spot when they came out of the dealer chute. The lawsuit claims Ivey wanted the cards shuffled by an automatic shuffling machine, which would not alter the way each card was aligned.
    It is unbelievable that a dealer could be talked into turning the cards for the player. Bad enough when the player does it. Of course, in AC you can't touch the cards because there are no pitch games except 6 to 5 single deck; I can't remember if they let you touch the cards in those games, but it should easily overcome the 6 to 5 feature, no? I would think the power is incredible in a single deck game and easy to fix the cards in not too many rounds. Should we even be discussing this in a public forum? Feel free to delete this post.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    It is unbelievable that a dealer could be talked into turning the cards for the player. Bad enough when the player does it. Of course, in AC you can't touch the cards because there are no pitch games except 6 to 5 single deck; I can't remember if they let you touch the cards in those games, but it should easily overcome the 6 to 5 feature, no? I would think the power is incredible in a single deck game and easy to fix the cards in not too many rounds. Should we even be discussing this in a public forum? Feel free to delete this post.
    The asked the dealer to do it repeatedly, they requested a specific shuffle machine, the house approved. End of story.
    In this one the house is also suing the card maker for "imperfect/defective" backs. Like I said, bad losers.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    The asked the dealer to do it repeatedly, they requested a specific shuffle machine, the house approved. End of story.
    In this one the house is also suing the card maker for "imperfect/defective" backs. Like I said, bad losers.
    Would an honest man take advantage of the cards' irregularities? I am grinning from ear to ear. You do not have to answer this.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Would an honest man take advantage of the cards' irregularities? I am grinning from ear to ear. You do not have to answer this.
    Would an honest casino allow a patron to lose massive amounts while shit faced delirious drunk on booze they gave him?
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Would an honest casino allow a patron to lose massive amounts while shit faced delirious drunk on booze they gave him?
    Do two wrongs make a right? They do? Oh, okay then.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Do two wrongs make a right? They do?
    In some cases. Beating someone at their own game is not considered wrong, regardless.
    Father McKenna found no inherent wrong in it: Card Counter for God.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    In some cases. Beating someone at their own game is not considered wrong, regardless.
    Father McKenna found no inherent wrong in it: Different Card Counter for God.
    Different situation. Using one's brain to win at cards is precisely what cards is all about. If you had x-ray vision, wouldn't you consider it cheating to use it to win at cards? I'm not saying I'd have the strength not to use my power, but I would consider it cheating. No?
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Different situation. Using one's brain to win at cards is precisely what cards is all about.
    That's what Ivey did, he used his brains without subterfuge right out in the open.

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    If you had x-ray vision, wouldn't you consider it cheating to use it to win at cards? I'm not saying I'd have the strength not to use my power, but I would consider it cheating. No?
    What if I used natural psychic intuition of a very rare magnitude?
    Hey remember Ray Milland in Man With The Xray Eyes? He beat the casinos.

    Dr. Xavier develops eyedrops intended to increase the range of human vision, allowing one to see beyond the "visible" spectrum into the ultraviolet and x-ray wavelengths and beyond. Believing that testing on animals and volunteers will produce uselessly subjective observations, he begins testing the drops on himself.


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