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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by shred View Post
    The largest Pre-columbian city in North America was Cahokia. It was in the Ohio and Mississippi valleys and centered east of St louis (sorry about a slight geographic error). The peak population of their major city was over 100,000 people around 1100 AD. This was the mound builders and their outposts are found As far as Georgia, Mississippi and Wisconsin. Evidence of trade routes that extended over 1000 miles are quite common. Due to a lack of any legend, records or mention of this most grand of Pre-columbian US cities among the tribes of the US social anthropologists believe that something particularly dreadful happened which all tribes wished to forget.
    Amazing early civilization -

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    http://www.zenzoneforum.com/threads/...227#post152227

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    Quote Originally Posted by shred View Post
    The largest Pre-columbian city in North America was Cahokia. It was in the Ohio and Mississippi valleys and centered east of St louis (sorry about a slight geographic error). The peak population of their major city was over 100,000 people around 1100 AD. This was the mound builders and their outposts are found As far as Georgia, Mississippi and Wisconsin. Evidence of trade routes that extended over 1000 miles are quite common. Due to a lack of any legend, records or mention of this most grand of Pre-columbian US cities among the tribes of the US social anthropologists believe that something particularly dreadful happened which all tribes wished to forget.

    The Pre-columbian population of the New World was over 40 million people. About 75% of them lived in MesoAmerica and South America. This is also where the largest cities were located. There has always been a little trouble with getting the facts right as many refused to believe that the indigenous peoples could have been so advanced. They clung to their Western bias and came up with outrageous explanations with no evidence to support them that had western influence arriving earlier than otherwise known and directing the unexpected developments. Of course with time these ideas were discredited.

    When the natives showed the plant corn was domesticated from nobody believed them. It looked more like an emaciated wheat plant than corn. Western domestication never got much of a change in appearance from the wild stock. Nobody ever had a problem agreeing what wild stock their domestic plants came from. The arrival of genetic testing settled the argument and proved the grand scope that the domestication of corn accomplished from its wild ancestor by the natives of the Americas.

    The best explanation for the mythical city of Atlantis in my opinion has it in South America at a time when most of the area was an inland sea. Of course once you get to this point you are being very speculative. They have found a city built on mounds that stuck up out of the sea that had dimensions that match the dimensions in the legend. The city was abandoned as the sea level rose causing it to go underwater. Later a breach in the natural dam that held the water drained the inland sea. The surrounding area also has many man made features designed to be viewed from the air. The Atlantians are said to have had aircraft which neatly explains why these landmarks were made and made so accurately. This again is highly speculative and Western bias again makes this harder for many to believe than less likely explanations but it comes closer to meeting the description of Atlantis than anything else I have heard of.
    I have always assumed that the stupendous landmarks that can be seen from the sky were evidence of their profound belief in gods who lived "out there" and these signs were an attempt attract these gods and to curry their favor. Their size I attributed to the sense they had of just how large and powerful these gods were and how distant they were from the earth. Of course, all that falls into the speculation about ETs visiting the earth, as well, something I have never been fully comfortable with.

    I find it easier to believe in past advanced civilizations than past ET visitations. The texts of the Bible were obviously an attempt to make sense out of a history for which there was no written record, and to trace their present day civilization back to the "Garden" (creation) which may have been an event that was 50 million years ago, not 6,000, the thought of which I am sure never entered into their minds, judging from their all around "primitive" thinking about the universe in those days (circa 1250 BC).
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDutton View Post

    There are many ancient advanced civilizations in the New World the Toltec, the Olmec, the Mayan and the Inca are just the better known. They all had feats of cooperative building that rivaled anything in the Old World. Probably the least well known and the oldest in the group is the Olmec. They were highly skilled artisans making exquisite figurines jade that was bluish-green. Over 3,000 years ago the Olmec civilization rose. They made a massive scale earthen bird flying eastward. It was covered by the jungle but the symmetry of the giant ridge had Archaeologists trying to figure out its significance. The were dumbfounded and decided it was an animal with its legs pointing North and South. An areal survey revealed it to be a bird flying towards the East. Why would they do this and how was it constructed so perfectly when scientists couldn't tell what it was except from the air. They were either very advanced or were capable of flight. The height of the civilization has been reliably dated to 1150 BC. There is a site that has an artificial high area made of soil, sand and rocks that weigh hundreds of thousands of tons for all the material moved to make the mound. It was covered with Basalt monuments (mostly carved heads) of single piece construction that averaged 18 tons each with the heaviest being 40 tons which were brought through (or over if done by air) the jungle from an extinct volcano over fifty miles away. One of the "altars" weighed much more than the heads. It is theorized that they used no longer navigable streams to transport them upstream on balsa rafts. Then they had to get them up a 150 foot slope to rest atop the ridge. This was the mother culture for the others that followed in Mexico and the rest of Central America. there is also evidence that they widely used a frog that has an extremely dangerous toxin in some way. Perhaps medicine or the hallucinogenic properties of a substance called bufotenine which is an active ingredient in the toxins. the population estimates are suspect because evidence shows that more people lived there than Archaeologists could believe the land could support. This causes population estimates to be all over the map. Maybe 25,000 people is the best guestimate for Tenochtitlan the capital of the early Olmecs. Again estimates are all over the map. The ceremonial building held almost 6,000 people. Toward the end of the civilization pyramids replaced the earthworks at the centers of the cities. There is evidence that this was a capital city that was a central government over many tribes in the region.
    Last edited by Lady Tthree; July 30th, 2012 at 11:51 AM.

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    Dogma schmogma

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    From the Dallas Morning News, 6 October 2012

    The question from my eighth-grade history student made me uncomfortable. I knew I couldn’t give her a truly satisfactory answer.
    “Why is Andrew Jackson’s picture on our $20 bill when he did such horrible things to the Cherokees?”
    “Well, he was our seventh president,” I told her. “He became an American hero when his troops won the Battle of New Orleans in the War of 1812. They even wrote a song about him when I was a kid.”
    I belted out the lyrics, “In 1814 we took a little trip, along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip’. We took a little bacon and we took a little beans, and we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans.”
    Students always love to see their teachers make fools of themselves. They politely chuckled. I chuckled. But I had evaded the point. I knew it. They knew it. I had not addressed that ugly matter of the Trail of Tears.
    Earlier in the week, I had shown them a video about it. Jackson had orchestrated the most shameful of all the injustices inflicted on American Indians by the United States government.
    In 1838, U.S. Army troops forcibly removed 16,000 Cherokees from their homes in several Southeastern states and made most of them walk nearly 1,000 miles to Indian Territory (now Oklahoma). More than 4,000 Cherokees didn’t make it — a fifth of their entire population. In the Cherokee language, the tragedy is called Nu na da ul tsun yi, “the place where they cried.”
    One of Jackson’s main goals as president was to ship all American Indians to remote destinations west of the “Mississip.” “Those tribes cannot exist surrounded by our settlements,” he wrote. “They have neither the intelligence nor the moral habits. … Established in the midst of a superior race, they must disappear.”
    In 1832 Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall issued a ruling that the Cherokee Nation was sovereign. The only way the Cherokees could be removed was through a treaty ratified by the U.S. Senate.
    Jackson would have none of that. He allegedly responded, “John Marshall has made his decision. Now let him enforce it! Build a fire under them [the Cherokees]. When it gets hot enough, they’ll go.”
    Eventually they left after a handful of Cherokees succumbed to pressure from Jackson and signed a removal treaty that almost all Cherokees opposed. When the Senate passed the treaty by one vote, the nightmare of the Trail of Tears unfolded.
    We currently have only seven denominations of paper money. How did Jackson get on one of them? By an act of Congress in 1862, the Treasury Department has the authority to choose the designs on our money. The present portraits were adopted in 1929. According to the website of the U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing, “records do not reveal the reason that portraits of these particular statesmen were chosen.”
    OK. So let’s change our $20 bill. The atmosphere has been ripe in America recently to knock admired people off their pedestals after the public has discovered more about their transgressions that had been swept under the rug. Look what happened to Joe Paterno.
    I propose that the U.S. Treasury replace Jackson with someone who respected the Cherokees so much that he lived with them for six years, adopted Cherokee citizenship, and even married one. Our own Sam Houston.
    Now there’s a real statesman for you. Governor of two states (Tennessee and Texas) and was commanding general of the Texas revolutionary army, two-time president of the Republic of Texas, U.S. senator from Texas for 13 years and champion for American Indians. “I am aware,” he said, “that in presenting myself as the advocate of the Indians and their rights I shall stand very much alone.”
    I expect opposition to replacing Jackson with Houston. If Washington shoots it down, maybe we should just print our own $20 bill with Sam Houston on it for use only in American Indian-owned casinos and the state of Texas.
    Even Rick Perry would probably go for that.

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    And this is the great country forcing it style of "Democracy" (Republic), all around the globe at the tip of the spear??????

    Actually still robbing resources from helpless 3rd world countries.

    One of these days they will come for us all,,,no doubt.

    Just ask the South, when all they wanted was their freedom,,,slaves or no slaves,,,slavery was LEGAL...............Lincoln,,the great one, killed well over 600,000 people, who only wanted freedom and family.

    CP
    "Midwest Masters Of Advantage", "Strength and Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by creeping panther View Post
    And this is the great country forcing it style of "Democracy" (Republic), all around the globe at the tip of the spear??????

    Actually still robbing resources from helpless 3rd world countries.

    One of these days they will come for us all,,,no doubt.

    Just ask the South, when all they wanted was their freedom,,,slaves or no slaves,,,slavery was LEGAL...............Lincoln,,the great one, killed well over 600,000 people, who only wanted freedom and family.

    CP
    CP, I needed to learn more of the Trail of Tears, so I looked up Wiki...

    Trail of Tears

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to: navigation, search
    For other uses, see Trail of Tears (disambiguation).


    Sign for the Trail of Tears National Historic Trail.


    The Trail of Tears is a name given to the forced relocation and movement of Native American nations from southeastern parts of the United States following the Indian Removal Act of 1830. The removal included many members of the Cherokee, Muscogee (Creek), Seminole, Chickasaw, and Choctaw nations, among others in the United States, from their homelands to Indian Territory (eastern sections of the present-day state of Oklahoma). The phrase originated from a description of the removal of the Choctaw Nation in 1831.[1] Many Native Americans suffered from exposure, disease and starvation en route to their destinations. Many died, including 4,000 of the 15,000 relocated Cherokee.[2]



    In 1831, the Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Muscogee-Creek, and Seminole (sometimes collectively referred to as the Five Civilized Tribes) were living as autonomous nations in what would be called the American Deep South. The process of cultural transformation (proposed by George Washington and Henry Knox) was gaining momentum, especially among the Cherokee and Choctaw.[3] Andrew Jackson continued and renewed the political and military effort for the removal of the Native Americans from these lands with the passage of the Indian Removal Act of 1830.
    In 1831 the Choctaw were the first to be removed, and they became the model for all other removals. After the Choctaw, the Seminole were removed in 1832, the Creek in 1834, then the Chickasaw in 1837, and finally the Cherokee in 1838.[4]

    After removal, some Native Americans remained in their ancient homelands - the Choctaw are found in Mississippi, the Seminole in Florida, the Creek in Alabama, and the Cherokee in North Carolina. A limited number of non-native Americans (including African-Americans - usually as slaves) also accompanied the Native American nations on the trek westward.[4] By 1837, 46,000 Native Americans from these southeastern states had been removed from their homelands thereby opening 25 million acres (100,000 km2) for predominantly white settlement.[4]


    The fixed boundaries of these autonomous tribal nations, comprising large areas of the United States, were subject to continual cession and annexation prior to 1830, in part due to pressure from squatters and the threat of military force in the newly declared U.S. territories -- federally administered regions whose boundaries supervened upon the Native treaty claims. As these territories became U.S. states, state governments sought to dissolve the boundaries of the Indian nations within their borders, which were independent of state jurisdiction, and to expropriate the land therein. These pressures were magnified by U.S. population growth and the expansion of slavery in the South.[5]
    Legal background

    The territorial boundaries claimed as sovereign and controlled by the Native American nations living in what was then known as the Indian Territories—the portion of the early United States east of the Mississippi River not yet claimed or allotted to become Oklahoma -- were fixed and determined by national treaties with the United States Federal government under terms recognizing these entities as dependent but internally sovereign, or autonomous nations under the sole jurisdiction of the Federal government.[5]
    While retaining their tribal governance, which included a constitution or official council in tribes such as the Iroquois and Cherokee, many portions of the southeastern Native American nations had become partially or completely economically integrated into the economy of the region. This included the plantation economy in states such as Georgia, and the possession of slaves. These slaves were also forcibly relocated during the process of removal.[5] A similar process had occurred earlier in the territories controlled by the Confederacy of the Six Nations in what is now upstate New York prior to the British invasion and subsequent U.S. annexation of the Iroquois nation.


    Under the history of U.S. treaty law, the territorial boundaries claimed by Federally recognized tribes received the same status under which the Southeastern tribal claims were recognized; until the following establishment of reservations of land, determined by the Federal government, which were ceded to the remaining tribes by de jure treaty, in a process that often entailed forced relocation. The establishment of the Indian Territory and the dissolution of Indian territories east of the Mississippi anticipated the establishment of the U.S. Indian reservation system, which was subsequently imposed on remaining Indian lands.


    The statutory argument for Native American sovereignty persisted until the Supreme Court ruled in Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (1831), that (e.g.) the Cherokees were not a sovereign and independent nation, and therefore not entitled to a hearing before the court. However, in Worcester v. Georgia (1832), the court re-established limited internal sovereignty under the sole jurisdiction of the Federal government, in a ruling that both opposed the subsequent forced relocation and set the basis for modern U.S. case law.


    While the latter ruling was famously defied by Jackson,[6] the actions of the Jackson administration were not isolated because state and federal officials had violated treaties without consequence, often attributed to military exigency, as the members of individual Native American nations were not automatically United States citizens and were rarely given standing in any U.S. court.


    Compounding this was the fact that while citizenship tests existed for Native Americans living in newly annexed areas before and after forced relocation, individual U.S. states did not recognize tribal land claims, only individual title under State law, and distinguished between the rights of white and non-white citizens, who often had limited standing in court; and Indian removal was carried out under U.S. military jurisdiction, often by state militias. As a result, individual Native Americans who could prove U.S. citizenship were nevertheless displaced from newly annexed areas.[5] The military actions and subsequent treaties enacted by the Jackson and Van Buren administrations pursuant to the 1830 law are widely considered to have directly caused the expulsion or death of a substantial part of the Native Americans then living in the southeastern United States.
    Choctaw voluntary removal

    Main article: Choctaw Trail of Tears
    The Choctaw nation was in what are now the U.S. states of Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana. After a series of treaties starting in 1801, the Choctaw nation was reduced to 11,000,000 acres (45,000 km2). The Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek ceded the remaining country to the United States and was ratified in early 1831. The removals were only agreed to after a provision in the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek allowed some Choctaw to remain. George W. Harkins would write to the citizens of the United States before the removals were to commence:


    It is with considerable diffidence that I attempt to address the American people, knowing and feeling sensibly my incompetency; and believing that your highly and well improved minds would not be well entertained by the address of a Choctaw. But having determined to emigrate west of the Mississippi river this fall, I have thought proper in bidding you farewell to make a few remarks expressive of my views, and the feelings that actuate me on the subject of our removal ... We as Choctaws rather chose to suffer and be free, than live under the degrading influence of laws, which our voice could not be heard in their formation.
    —-George W. Harkins, George W. Harkins to the American People[7]

    Map of United States Indian Removal, 1830-1835. Oklahoma is depicted in light yellow-green.




    Secretary of War Lewis Cass appointed George Gaines to manage the removals. Gaines decided to remove Choctaws in three phases starting in 1831 and ending in 1833. The first was to begin on November 1, 1831 with groups meeting at Memphis and Vicksburg. A harsh winter would batter the emigrants with flash floods, sleet, and snow. Initially the Choctaws were to be transported by wagon but floods halted them. With food running out, the residents of Vicksburg and Memphis were concerned. Five steamboats (the Walter Scott, the Brandywine, the Reindeer, the Talma, and the Cleopatra) would ferry Choctaws to their river-based destinations.

    The Memphis group traveled up the Arkansas for about 60 miles (97 km) to Arkansas Post. There the temperature stayed below freezing for almost a week with the rivers clogged with ice, so there would be no travel for weeks. Food rationing consisted of a handful of boiled corn, one turnip, and two cups of heated water per day. Forty government wagons were sent to Arkansas Post to transport them to Little Rock. When they reached Little Rock, a Choctaw chief (thought to be Thomas Harkins or Nitikechi) quoted to the Arkansas Gazette that the removal was a "trail of tears and death."[8] The Vicksburg group was led by an incompetent guide and was lost in the Lake Providence swamps.


    Alexis de Tocqueville, the French philosopher, witnessed the Choctaw removals while in Memphis, Tennessee in 1831,
    In the whole scene there was an air of ruin and destruction, something which betrayed a final and irrevocable adieu; one couldn't watch without feeling one's heart wrung. The Indians were tranquil, but sombre and taciturn. There was one who could speak English and of whom I asked why the Chactas were leaving their country. "To be free," he answered, could never get any other reason out of him. We ... watch the expulsion ... of one of the most celebrated and ancient American peoples.
    —- Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America[9]
    Nearly 17,000 Choctaws made the move to what would be called Indian Territory and then later Oklahoma.[10] About 2,500–6,000 died along the trail of tears. Approximately 5,000–6,000 Choctaws remained in Mississippi in 1831 after the initial removal efforts.[11][12] The Choctaws who chose to remain in newly formed Mississippi were subject to legal conflict, harassment, and intimidation. The Choctaws "have had our habitations torn down and burned, our fences destroyed, cattle turned into our fields and we ourselves have been scourged, manacled, fettered and otherwise personally abused, until by such treatment some of our best men have died."[12] The Choctaws in Mississippi were later reformed as the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians and the removed Choctaws became the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma.
    Seminole resistance

    Main article: Seminole Wars
    The U.S. acquired Florida from Spain via the Adams-Onís Treaty and took possession in 1821. In 1832 the Seminoles were called to a meeting at Payne's Landing on the Ocklawaha River. The treaty negotiated called for the Seminoles to move west, if the land were found to be suitable. They were to be settled on the Creek reservation and become part of the Creek tribe, who considered them deserters; some of the Seminoles had been derived from Creek bands but also from other tribes. Those among the tribe who once were members of Creek bands did not wish to move west to where they were certain that they would meet death for leaving the main band of Creek Indians.

    The delegation of seven chiefs who were to inspect the new reservation did not leave Florida until October 1832. After touring the area for several months and conferring with the Creeks who had already settled there, the seven chiefs signed a statement on March 28, 1833 that the new land was acceptable. Upon their return to Florida, however, most of the chiefs renounced the statement, claiming that they had not signed it, or that they had been forced to sign it, and in any case, that they did not have the power to decide for all the tribes and bands that resided on the reservation. The villages in the area of the Apalachicola River were more easily persuaded, however, and went west in 1834.[13] On December 28, 1835 a group of Seminoles and blacks ambushed a U.S. Army company marching from Fort Brooke in Tampa to Fort King in Ocala. Out of 110 army troops only 3 survived, this came to be known as the Dade Massacre.


    Seminole warrior Tuko-see-mathla, 1834


    As the realization that the Seminoles would resist relocation sank in, Florida began preparing for war. The St. Augustine Militia asked the War Department for the loan of 500 muskets. Five hundred volunteers were mobilized under Brig. Gen. Richard K. Call. Indian war parties raided farms and settlements, and families fled to forts, large towns, or out of the territory altogether. A war party led by Osceola captured a Florida militia supply train, killing eight of its guards and wounding six others. Most of the goods taken were recovered by the militia in another fight a few days later. Sugar plantations along the Atlantic coast south of St. Augustine were destroyed, with many of the slaves on the plantations joining the Seminoles.[14]



    Other warchiefs such as Halleck Tustenuggee, Jumper, and Black Seminoles Abraham and John Horse continued the Seminole resistance against the army. The war ended, after a full decade of fighting, in 1842. The U.S. government is estimated to have spent about $20,000,000 on the war, at the time an astronomical sum, and equal to $481,655,172 today. Many Indians were forcibly exiled to Creek lands west of the Mississippi; others retreated into the Everglades. In the end, the government gave up trying to subjugate the Seminole in their Everglades redoubts and left fewer than 100 Seminoles in peace. However, other scholars state that at least several hundred Seminoles remained in the Everglades after the Seminole Wars.[15][16][17]
    As a result of the Seminole Wars, the surviving Seminole band of the Everglades claims to be the only Federally recognized tribe which never relinquished sovereignty or signed a peace treaty with the United States.
    Creek dissolution

    Selocta (or Shelocta) was a Muscogee chief who appealed to Andrew Jackson to reduce the demands for Creek lands at the signing of the Treaty of Fort Jackson
    Dogma schmogma

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    [CP] rejects the US's sorrow and attempts to make restitution for any wrongs that [US govt] did to his people.
    I don't think they even tried to come close.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    I don't think they even tried to come close.
    That may be true. What steps do you think should be taken? What are you doing to achieve these remedies? Is restitution even possible? Isn't it a case where, say, your child is killed by a negligent swat team raiding your house on a tip that LSD was on the premises (I thought I'd add a realistic touch), what on earth would constitute adequate restitution? You don't have to answer that because no restitution would be enough. Just so perhaps with the treatment of Native Americans. But if more can and should practicably be done, I am open to a thorough examination and discussion of the issue. I, like you, believe in accountability.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
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    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    That may be true. What steps do you think should be taken? What are you doing to achieve these remedies? Is restitution even possible? Isn't it a case where, say, your child is killed by a negligent swat team raiding your house on a tip that LSD was on the premises (I thought I'd add a realistic touch), what on earth would constitute adequate restitution? You don't have to answer that because no restitution would be enough. Just so perhaps with the treatment of Native Americans. But if more can and should practicably be done, I am open to a thorough examination and discussion of the issue. I, like you, believe in accountability.
    Good. We like to plan ahead. After we settle the Indian issue, we can then move on to the slavery race issue... and compensation for them too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katz View Post
    Good. We like to plan ahead. After we settle the Indian issue, we can then move on to the slavery race issue... and compensation for them too.
    Yes, and we can start with those blacks who sold their fellow countrymen into slavery. By the way, was slavery a crime on Africa in those days? I don't even know. If it wasn't a crime, do we need to go after the civil authorities in Africa? Legal or not, shouldn't it be punishable? Also, wasn't slavery legal in all parts of the world at one time. Very bad indeed. I think we have a class action suit against the whole world as defendant. If the whole world is the defendant, who will the plaintiff be? And who will be the recipient of whatever the courts decide to award for so many years of slavery? I have another class action suit regarding certain individuals being fed to the lions (the bad lions) and boiled in oil. But that discussion can wait until later.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    I find it easier to believe in past advanced civilizations than past ET visitations.
    They are indelibly intertwined.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Yes, and we can start with those blacks who sold their fellow countrymen into slavery. By the way, was slavery a crime on Africa in those days? I don't even know. If it wasn't a crime, do we need to go after the civil authorities in Africa? Legal or not, shouldn't it be punishable? Also, wasn't slavery legal in all parts of the world at one time. Very bad indeed. I think we have a class action suit against the whole world as defendant. If the whole world is the defendant, who will the plaintiff be? And who will be the recipient of whatever the courts decide to award for so many years of slavery? I have another class action suit regarding certain individuals being fed to the lions (the bad lions) and boiled in oil. But that discussion can wait until later.
    Yes, and don't forget to leave out your Vatican. They had slaves too, remember...

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