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    Aslan, as long as there are people like Kat around to distort the meaning of various religions people we will continue on the path we are on. The people who distort the messages from various religions caused the inquisition, the crusades, muslim terrorism and just about every other atrocity in history. They try to use peoples faith to get power. It is a crying shame but at least we have a living example of it here for us all to learn from. They spew hate and bigotry and turn all messages of peace and tolerance which is a common thread among most religions on their heads.

    CP, I feel for the price paid by your people to those craving power and riches. They use all vehicles to get the power and riches including government, religion and any economic trickery or strong arming that they have at their disposal. The end justifies the means and it doesn't matter what cost others have to pay. 95% of natives were wiped out by diseases they had no resistance to after first contact with Europeans. The rest usually left their communal areas as they were tainted by evil in their minds. The second wave of Europeans often found crops and settlements that were abandoned. Without these they might not have survived. Then the power seekers used what they called manifest destiny which was a parallel to what is translated as the wasp which was sent out ahead of the jews as the entered the promised land. Those that know what the hebrew word means knows it to be a plague just like what happened to the indigenous populations here. They used this parallel to say we were to wipe out the natives as the Jews were supposed to the indigenous population in the promised land. Thankfully neither the Jews nor the white men fully did this. Unfortunately the descendants of those that were spared often don't forgive so the complications of what one could oddly call compassion have consequences up to this day. If only we could all follow the grand teachings of the peace makers of spiritual leaders.
    Last edited by Lady Tthree; July 28th, 2012 at 07:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shred View Post
    Aslan, as long as there are people like Kat around to distort the meaning of various religions people we will continue on the path we are on. The people who distort the messages from various religions caused the inquisition, the crusades, muslim terrorism and just about every other atrocity in history. They try to use peoples faith to get power. It is a crying shame but at least we have a living example of it here for us all to learn from. They spew hate and bigotry and turn all messages of peace and tolerance which is a common thread among most religions on their heads.

    CP, I feel for the price paid by your people to those craving power and riches. They use all vehicles to get the power and riches including government, religion and any economic trickery or strong arming that they have at their disposal. The end justifies the means and it doesn't matter what cost others have to pay. 95% of natives were wiped out by diseases they had no resistance to after first contact with Europeans. The rest usually left their communal areas as they were tainted by evil in their minds. The second wave of Europeans often found crops and settlements that were abandoned. Without these they might not have survived. Then the power seekers used what they called manifest destiny which was a parallel to what is translated as the wasp which was sent out ahead of the jews as the entered the promised land. Those that know what the hebrew word means knows it to be a plague just like what happened to the indigenous populations here. They used this parallel to say we were to wipe out the natives as the Jews were supposed to the indigenous population in the promised land. Thankfully neither the Jews nor the white men fully did this. Unfortunately the descendants of those that were spared often don't forgive so the complications of what one could oddly call compassion have consequences up to this day. If only we could all follow the grand teachings of the peace makers of spiritual leaders.
    As long as there are people around who are interested in the truth about history and religion then all is not lost for civilization. I hope CP will open up some more on this thread, as he represents still-living American history. As for Australia, here there was a similar sorry tale to that in America (and in many other parts of the world). In Central and South America it was the Conquistadors with their Catholic priests.

    The white-Christian settlers (invaders) arrived Down Under with their guns, bibles, alcohol and disease; immediately looking for the best land to take. Once 3M natives here then, are now around 300,000.

    In the 1800s exterminating aborigines had about the same value as shooting wild dogs or other 'vermin' as they were called. The Christian community was encouraged at church to get rid of the 'heathen savage' as they were not considered human beings and 'God' said nothing contra in the Bible. There's yet another strike against Bible credibility... The Christian-white-Caucasian superiority complex continues to this day. Nothing in the Bible is contra to that either. Another strike...
    Dogma schmogma

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    Quote Originally Posted by shred View Post
    Aslan, as long as there are people like Kat around to distort the meaning of various religions people we will continue on the path we are on. The people who distort the messages from various religions caused the inquisition, the crusades, muslim terrorism and just about every other atrocity in history. They try to use peoples faith to get power. It is a crying shame but at least we have a living example of it here for us all to learn from. They spew hate and bigotry and turn all messages of peace and tolerance which is a common thread among most religions on their heads.

    CP, I feel for the price paid by your people to those craving power and riches. They use all vehicles to get the power and riches including government, religion and any economic trickery or strong arming that they have at their disposal. The end justifies the means and it doesn't matter what cost others have to pay. 95% of natives were wiped out by diseases they had no resistance to after first contact with Europeans. The rest usually left their communal areas as they were tainted by evil in their minds. The second wave of Europeans often found crops and settlements that were abandoned. Without these they might not have survived. Then the power seekers used what they called manifest destiny which was a parallel to what is translated as the wasp which was sent out ahead of the jews as the entered the promised land. Those that know what the hebrew word means knows it to be a plague just like what happened to the indigenous populations here. They used this parallel to say we were to wipe out the natives as the Jews were supposed to the indigenous population in the promised land. Thankfully neither the Jews nor the white men fully did this. Unfortunately the descendants of those that were spared often don't forgive so the complications of what one could oddly call compassion have consequences up to this day. If only we could all follow the grand teachings of the peace makers of spiritual leaders.
    There are a lot of people who distort the meaning and message of Christianity in order to undermine and destroy it.

    Then there are Christians themselves who distort the meaning and message of Christianity so as to make it serve them instead of them serving Christ and their fellow man. They believe that their goodly lives and prayers will make them rich and/or powerful. It isn't going to happen. The riches of a goodly life are stored in heaven. God will meet the good man's earthly needs, not desires for riches and power except as they may serve His ends. The gospel of prosperity is a false gospel. These are those who give in order to get. Their love is not wholly to please God. The allure of riches has choked the Word and stunted their spiritual growth. I am preaching as much to myself as to anyone else. Look around you. If a lot of people have reached your level, you have set the bar too low. I know I have. Onward and upward. Today if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts... Hebrews 3:7
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    As long as there are people around who are interested in the truth about history and religion then all is not lost for civilization. I hope CP will open up some more on this thread, as he represents still-living American history. As for Australia, here there was a similar sorry tale to that in America (and in many other parts of the world). In Central and South America it was the Conquistadors with their Catholic priests.

    The white-Christian settlers (invaders) arrived Down Under with their guns, bibles, alcohol and disease; immediately looking for the best land to take. Once 3M natives here then, are now around 300,000.

    In the 1800s exterminating aborigines had about the same value as shooting wild dogs or other 'vermin' as they were called. The Christian community was encouraged at church to get rid of the 'heathen savage' as they were not considered human beings and 'God' said nothing contra in the Bible. There's yet another strike against Bible credibility... The Christian-white-Caucasian superiority complex continues to this day. Nothing in the Bible is contra to that either. Another strike...
    You made my point which impressed me but then you back to your misinformation. If you read the parts of the Bible that make it Christian rather tan Jewish you see the proper interpretation of the Old Testament. It is all about forgiveness, love, tolerance to the point that it doesn't cause abandonment of principles or corruption of the whole, brotherhood and above all peaceful interactions with your neighbors even if they are your enemy. The shepherd's that blinded their followers to this fact as well as those that willfully blind themselves to this in order to feel righteous as they do the opposite of God's message are the problem. If they didn't try to twist the meaning to suit their greedy or power seeking agendas none of this would have occurred.

    You are guilty of doing the exact same thing that took the message that should have prevented anything like these things from happening and turning it on its head to mean something entirely different. You are a clone of the inquisitor and cause many to stray from the productive message to society that the Bible actually says. After listening to your distortions it wouldn't surprise me if a whole new generation of inquisitors arise and cause a whole new crop of problems. You are the living example of the people that caused the problems you rail against. Why don't you try to understand what is written and help spread the forgiveness, peace and brotherhood that Jesus taught rather than sow the seeds that lead to the division and destruction that you rail against.

    I don't see nonsecular groups leading in the right direction. They preach tolerance but when people with opposing views to them are at issue they take intolerance to new heights. What they really mean is tolerate the intolerable but the traditional we can not tolerate. Or stated another way whatever I do you have to tolerate but I reserve the right to surpass all previous intolerance if I disagree with what you do. It is the same mindset that led some organized religion off the path but without any benefits to society. I tried to be a part of this social experiment but it became apparent quite early that no evolution of thought had occurred. It was actually de-evolution of thought. It is just as easily if not more easily co-opted by those seeking riches and power. The people that follow this new age belief system seem to be more of the sheep type than the thinker type. Very easily fed propaganda and led astray. I suspect that is why almost all of the propaganda arms of the rich and powerful seem to cater to this audience. Then you have FOX news catering to the easily led side of the other end of the spectrum. The powers that be own both and only seek to control as many minds as possible with propaganda. They don't care if the one side listens to propaganda A and thinks propaganda B is ridiculous and biased and vice versa. All that matters is that they get to control as many minds as possible with propaganda of any kind.
    Last edited by Lady Tthree; July 29th, 2012 at 08:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shred View Post

    I don't see nonsecular groups leading in the right direction. They preach tolerance but when people with opposing views to them are at issue they take intolerance to new heights. What they really mean is tolerate the intolerable but the traditional we can not tolerate. Or stated another way whatever I do you have to tolerate but I reserve the right to surpass all previous intolerance if I disagree with what you do. .
    Can anyone say, "Chick-fil-A?"
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by shred View Post

    The people that follow this new age belief system seem to be more of the sheep type than the thinker type. Very easily fed propaganda and led astray. I suspect that is why almost all of the propaganda arms of the rich and powerful seem to cater to this audience. Then you have FOX news catering to the easily led side of the other end of the spectrum. The powers that be own both and only seek to control as many minds as possible with propaganda. They don't care if the one side listens to propaganda A and thinks propaganda B is ridiculous and biased and vice versa. All that matters is that they get to control as many minds as possible with propaganda of any kind.
    The world never gets it right. One road leads in a wrong direction. The other road leads in a wrong direction. Both roads lead in a wrong direction. Always, we are left to choose the lesser of evils. That has been my lifetime experience.

    And as you say, the super rich at the top of the pyramid pull the strings of "leaders" on both roads. All they care about is control, which equals greater power and riches for themselves. They may even believe it leads to peace. I suppose you could call a plantation peaceful. Slaves dare not get out of line. In that regard, nothing is more peaceful than a totalitarian state, or is it?

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    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Amazingly incredible how you Christians take every opportunity to diverge way off the thread track, jump on your preachy soapboxes and give us yet another sermon from your mount, on what Jesus and God really want or really said. I love Christians! They are nothing if not entirely ... predictable. Guys, please don't keep up the good work!

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    Dogma schmogma

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    Kat, the U.S. is done, that is so clear,,Obama, Romney,, Dems, Republicans,both begging Israel for support, buying their support, 70 Million here, 3 Billion there, Romney stating it is the responsiblity of the US to protect Israel, our Grandsons and Sons, Daughters dying for Israel, Fuck you Romney,,,and fuck you Obama, the White half of you and the Black.

    123 years after you finally crushed the Native people, this nation is disintegrating,,,and the Bison is making a comeback, but the tribes never will, as the destruction wrought upon them has been to great to overcome.

    Sitting Bull, was wiser than anyone ever thought. Crazy Horse, a man who loved freedom so much that he allowed himself to be bayoneted to death rather than be tricked into entering a jail cell,,,,they were the real deals, heroes, warriors, freedom fighters!

    The Cheyenne, escaping hell in Oklahoma back to their home in Montana, against all odds some actually made it,,,many died on the trek,,,women, children,,,for freedom, for Liberty, for home!

    AS MLK has said, it applies to me, "I have been to the mountain top, I have seen the promised land",,literally. I have felt the spirits of all those who have come before, and it was intoxicating and beautiful.

    The first European to see Yosemite,,,,do you know what they wandered in there to do???????????????


    CP
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    Quote Originally Posted by creeping panther View Post
    Kat, the U.S. is done, that is so clear,,Obama, Romney,, Dems, Republicans,both begging Israel for support, buying their support, 70 Million here, 3 Billion there, Romney stating it is the responsiblity of the US to protect Israel, our Grandsons and Sons, Daughters dying for Israel, Fuck you Romney,,,and fuck you Obama, the White half of you and the Black.

    123 years after you finally crushed the Native people, this nation is disintegrating,,,and the Bison is making a comeback, but the tribes never will, as the destruction wrought upon them has been to great to overcome.

    Sitting Bull, was wiser than anyone ever thought. Crazy Horse, a man who loved freedom so much that he allowed himself to be bayoneted to death rather than be tricked into entering a jail cell,,,,they were the real deals, heroes, warriors, freedom fighters!

    The Cheyenne, escaping hell in Oklahoma back to their home in Montana, against all odds some actually made it,,,many died on the trek,,,women, children,,,for freedom, for Liberty, for home!

    AS MLK has said, it applies to me, "I have been to the mountain top, I have seen the promised land",,literally. I have felt the spirits of all those who have come before, and it was intoxicating and beautiful.

    The first European to see Yosemite,,,,do you know what they wandered in there to do??????????????? CP
    A sign of hope, mi Jefe - New white buffalo named Yellow Medicine Dancing Boy

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    CP as you may know I minored in Archaeology and Anthropology. The Pre-columbian native cultures were some of the most advanced in the world. They had cities that had 1/4 to a 3/4 million people. They did it without all the problems associated with cities in the rest of the world. They were more spread out which made sanitation and disease not much of an issue compared to cities in the rest of the world. The mounds that once stuck up all over the flat lands of Ohio and the surrounding area were from one large settlement. Atop these mounds stood wooden structures that left little for archaeologists to find once they rotted. The river systems of the Ohio and Mississippi were the trade lifelines that supplied the sprawling metropolis. Their agriculture produced as much from the land as ours today does if not more. I could go on and on but my point is they don't teach the real story in schools. In colleges you only get it if you have tenured professors that have job security. Aslan mentioned the taking of scalps which was proof of a kill to collect a bounty during the French-Indian War. That was a white mans invention. Before that it didn't exist as far as I know. Although a few tribes were a little more warlike, combat was generally more of a challenge of bravado than a fight of attrition until they needed to adapt to European ideas of war. Before that it was more like disputes in the animal kingdom. There was displays of strength and bravery that usually resolved the conflict with minimal harm to either party. It was like a fight among dogs. It looks and sounds nasty but they are trying to resolve their conflict without much if any harm to the other. Of course as with animals some combatants won't back down and when both are of this nature things escalate. The wisdom and civility of Pre-columbian culture should get the respect it deserves. Now I suspect the lesser informed will say how wrong I am but this is what I learned from the study of Pre-columbian America in University level Archaeology studies. There were these types of large civilizations across both North and South America.
    Last edited by Lady Tthree; July 29th, 2012 at 09:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shred View Post
    CP as you may know I minored in Archaeology and Anthropology. The Pre-columbian native cultures were some of the most advanced in the world. They had cities that had 1/4 to a 3/4 million people. They did it without all the problems associated with cities in the rest of the world. They were more spread out which made sanitation and disease not much of an issue compared to cities in the rest of the world. The mounds that once stuck up all over the flat lands of Ohio and the surrounding area were from one large settlement. Atop these mounds stood wooden structures that left little for archaeologists to find once they rotted. The river systems of the Ohio and Mississippi were the trade lifelines that supplied the sprawling metropolis. Their agriculture produced as much from the land as ours today does if not more. I could go on and on but my point is they don't teach the real story in schools. In colleges you only get it if you have tenured professors that have job security. Aslan mentioned the taking of scalps which was proof of a kill to collect a bounty during the French-Indian War. That was a white mans invention. Before that it didn't exist as far as I know. Although a few tribes were a little more warlike, combat was generally more of a challenge of bravado than a fight of attrition until they needed to adapt to European ideas of war. Before that it was more like disputes in the animal kingdom. There was displays of strength and bravery that usually resolved the conflict with minimal harm to either party. It was like a fight among dogs. It looks and sounds nasty but they are trying to resolve their conflict without much if any harm to the other. Of course as with animals some combatants won't back down and when both are of this nature things escalate. The wisdom and civility of Pre-columbian culture should get the respect it deserves. Now I suspect the lesser informed will say how wrong I am but this is what I learned from the study of Pre-columbian America in University level Archaeology studies. There were these types of large civilizations across both North and South America.
    Interesting, and I agree. But not to paint too rosy a picture, remember the prevalence of human sacrifice among Mayans, Aztecs, Incas and others in the pre-columbian Americas.

    On the subject of scalping, I admit to my own ignorance, but the very first place I looked had this to say:

    Certain tribes of Native Americans practiced scalping, in some instances up until the end of the 19th century. According to Haines and Steckel (2000), "Probably the most dramatic skeletal example of prehistoric violence in North America comes from the Crow Creek site in central South Dakota. Archaeological excavations revealed about 486 skeletons within a fortification ditch on the periphery of the habitation area. The site represents the Initial Coalescent period and dates to about 1325 A.D. P. Willey's analysis revealed that 90% of the individuals had cut marks characteristic of scalping."[8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalping

    None of this is to disparage the indigenous peoples of North and South America, but only in hopes of interjecting some balance into the discussion. On the subject of the wars between the white settlers and the North American Native Americans, again I am no expert on the subject, but from what I do know, I believe the American government disgraced the people it represented. For this I am gravely sorry.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by creeping panther View Post
    Kat, the U.S. is done, that is so clear,,Obama, Romney,, Dems, Republicans,both begging Israel for support, buying their support, 70 Million here, 3 Billion there, Romney stating it is the responsiblity of the US to protect Israel, our Grandsons and Sons, Daughters dying for Israel, Fuck you Romney,,,and fuck you Obama, the White half of you and the Black.

    123 years after you finally crushed the Native people, this nation is disintegrating,,,and the Bison is making a comeback, but the tribes never will, as the destruction wrought upon them has been to great to overcome.

    Sitting Bull, was wiser than anyone ever thought. Crazy Horse, a man who loved freedom so much that he allowed himself to be bayoneted to death rather than be tricked into entering a jail cell,,,,they were the real deals, heroes, warriors, freedom fighters!

    The Cheyenne, escaping hell in Oklahoma back to their home in Montana, against all odds some actually made it,,,many died on the trek,,,women, children,,,for freedom, for Liberty, for home!

    AS MLK has said, it applies to me, "I have been to the mountain top, I have seen the promised land",,literally. I have felt the spirits of all those who have come before, and it was intoxicating and beautiful.

    The first European to see Yosemite,,,,do you know what they wandered in there to do???????????????


    CP
    Thanks CP. You know much untold of your peoples' ancient ways and secrets I'm sure. But much is probably best left unsaid... Shred seems to be intent on proving even more ancient civilizations existed that could have been more 'civilized' or something; and I'm not sure what Aslan is on about scalping for. I like how you deal with Mormon Inc and Obama. But is there a credible alternative now, seeing as Ron Paul seems to be a rank outsider?

    Please tell us again of your Great Spirit experiences, if you will. When you speak of such things, the Spirit permeates your words and provides great impact. Even when you spoke before of how a close relative did what she had to do to survive the US Cavalry massacre. You are living history.
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    Dogma schmogma

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    All I did was cite from Archaeology textbooks. If you live in the area of OHio most of the mounds have been flattened but you can still find enough to know I speak the truth.

    If you want a reference I believe a lot came from "Readings in Physical Anthropology and Archaeology" by David E. Hunter and Phillip Whitten. We studied a lot of texts and other sources but I am pretty sure the Ohio reference came from that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shred View Post
    All I did was cite from Archaeology textbooks. If you live in the area of OHio most of the mounds have been flattened but you can still find enough to know I speak the truth.

    If you want a reference I believe a lot came from "Readings in Physical Anthropology and Archaeology" by David E. Hunter and Phillip Whitten. We studied a lot of texts and other sources but I am pretty sure the Ohio reference came from that one.
    It's amazing what so-called backward civilizations were able to accomplish.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by shred View Post
    CP as you may know I minored in Archaeology and Anthropology. The Pre-columbian native cultures were some of the most advanced in the world. They had cities that had 1/4 to a 3/4 million people. They did it without all the problems associated with cities in the rest of the world. They were more spread out which made sanitation and disease not much of an issue compared to cities in the rest of the world. The mounds that once stuck up all over the flat lands of Ohio and the surrounding area were from one large settlement. Atop these mounds stood wooden structures that left little for archaeologists to find once they rotted. The river systems of the Ohio and Mississippi were the trade lifelines that supplied the sprawling metropolis. Their agriculture produced as much from the land as ours today does if not more. I could go on and on but my point is they don't teach the real story in schools. In colleges you only get it if you have tenured professors that have job security. Aslan mentioned the taking of scalps which was proof of a kill to collect a bounty during the French-Indian War. That was a white mans invention. Before that it didn't exist as far as I know. Although a few tribes were a little more warlike, combat was generally more of a challenge of bravado than a fight of attrition until they needed to adapt to European ideas of war. Before that it was more like disputes in the animal kingdom. There was displays of strength and bravery that usually resolved the conflict with minimal harm to either party. It was like a fight among dogs. It looks and sounds nasty but they are trying to resolve their conflict without much if any harm to the other. Of course as with animals some combatants won't back down and when both are of this nature things escalate. The wisdom and civility of Pre-columbian culture should get the respect it deserves. Now I suspect the lesser informed will say how wrong I am but this is what I learned from the study of Pre-columbian America in University level Archaeology studies. There were these types of large civilizations across both North and South America.
    The largest Pre-columbian city in North America was Cahokia. It was in the Ohio and Mississippi valleys and centered east of St louis (sorry about a slight geographic error). The peak population of their major city was over 100,000 people around 1100 AD. This was the mound builders and their outposts are found As far as Georgia, Mississippi and Wisconsin. Evidence of trade routes that extended over 1000 miles are quite common. Due to a lack of any legend, records or mention of this most grand of Pre-columbian US cities among the tribes of the US social anthropologists believe that something particularly dreadful happened which all tribes wished to forget.

    The Pre-columbian population of the New World was over 40 million people. About 75% of them lived in MesoAmerica and South America. This is also where the largest cities were located. There has always been a little trouble with getting the facts right as many refused to believe that the indigenous peoples could have been so advanced. They clung to their Western bias and came up with outrageous explanations with no evidence to support them that had western influence arriving earlier than otherwise known and directing the unexpected developments. Of course with time these ideas were discredited.

    When the natives showed the plant corn was domesticated from nobody believed them. It looked more like an emaciated wheat plant than corn. Western domestication never got much of a change in appearance from the wild stock. Nobody ever had a problem agreeing what wild stock their domestic plants came from. The arrival of genetic testing settled the argument and proved the grand scope that the domestication of corn accomplished from its wild ancestor by the natives of the Americas.

    The best explanation for the mythical city of Atlantis in my opinion has it in South America at a time when most of the area was an inland sea. Of course once you get to this point you are being very speculative. They have found a city built on mounds that stuck up out of the sea that had dimensions that match the dimensions in the legend. The city was abandoned as the sea level rose causing it to go underwater. Later a breach in the natural dam that held the water drained the inland sea. The surrounding area also has many man made features designed to be viewed from the air. The Atlantians are said to have had aircraft which neatly explains why these landmarks were made and made so accurately. This again is highly speculative and Western bias again makes this harder for many to believe than less likely explanations but it comes closer to meeting the description of Atlantis than anything else I have heard of.

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