You get respect by giving respect. If you don't show respect how will anyone respect you and your opinion or beliefs. It is up to everyone to make up their own minds. As long as they don't spew hate or condone evil doing why should I have a problem with it.
Last edited by Lady Tthree; May 1st, 2012 at 05:50 PM.
#6 of 50. The Jesus Story was (obviously) Fabricated and Plagiarized from other, more ancient Traditions.
Here's that video...
These expects pick how they present their facts. They go back to the oldest complete codex and act like that is as far back as you can trace the scriptures in writing. This is a lie by the way the present it. While technically true they present it so you assume that nothing exists that is older. Many older manuscripts and fragments of manuscripts exist from centuries before this year 300 CE codex. They confirm that older copies existed, did not change and are almost impossible to preserve unless written in stone. Most stone writings of antiquity are destroyed by conquerors who want to have their story told rather than that of the conquered people or a previous or competitive regime.
As an example of this tendency some of the richest finds are the rubble removed from the Mosque that stands where the Temple was. The have been removing the old Temple artifacts for years and destroying them. This is in modern times. Think how much worse it was then. Many Archeologists are nationalists hoping to prove their people's right to the holy land or prove their religion right while disproving others. Look at what happened at Ebla (a dig in Syria of a 2.000 to 2,500 BC where they found a library of stone tablets). The archeologists found evidence of Abraham and Esau in the library found in their dig. The Syrian government was going to cut off access to digs in Syria if they didn't change their interpretation of the finds. Low and behold it became the consensus among archeologists that they were mistaken. Anyone with half a brain knows that they just capitulated to keep their access to the ruins of ancient settlements in Syria.
Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10 Apa trece, pietrele ramān.
To will one thing. Soren Kierkegaard
and later, Men, love your wives.
If you understand Christian love, that is about as equal as you can get, considering how Christ is our head, yet he allowed himself to be crucified for our sake. Christian love is always sacrificial. It's deferring to others, considering them more important, serving. In that context, one might wonder, who is being asked to be more submissive, the wife or the husband?
Also, as in any other enterprise, and raising a family is certainly an enterprise, there has to be a boss and subordinates, but they are only "unequal" if you may in a very restricted sense, that of enterprise matters. Apart from the business, they are equals, and in every moral sense they are equals. Also, being the boss has no connotations that the boss is better than the employee or in any way more deserving. The so-called "inequality" within marriage is a very practical arrangement. It has the thumb print of God, in so much as God deigned to become a man, not a woman, in order to effect our salvation, yet he used woman mightily, in the person of His Mother, to complete that salvation. It is she who will crush the head of the serpent, Satan, and she who is the Mediatrix between us and her Son. We call her our co-redemptrix.
Truth is not always simplistic. An abyss separates the wisdom of God and the wisdom of man. The world want a Superman savior, not a meek and humble God Who submits to death on a cross. The world wants shock and awe, not a turn-the-other-cheek, love-your-enemies savior. The world will one day get its wish, and that is when the God that men crucified returns to judge all mankind. There will be no second chance, no reincarnation, no excuses-- it is given for us once to live and then to come to judgment for how we lived our lives. Did we feed the hungry? Did we help the poor with clothing, medicine, housing, money, whatever they needed? Or did we ignore third world countries, and even the destitute laying in the gutters of our own streets? Was our focus limited to getting ahead in life, worshiping at the altar of the almighty dollar, not having time for others, for our neighbors, for our spouses, or even our own children? Judgment will come for everyone and it does not have to wait until the end of the world, it will happen when each one of us dies.
Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10 Apa trece, pietrele ramān.
To will one thing. Soren Kierkegaard
#7 of 50: Deception. Early Christian Records Fabricated.
An honest man's the noblest work of God.
An honest God's the noblest work of man.
Alexander Pope (1688-1744), An Essay on Man
Samuel Butler (1835-1902), Further Extracts
Even by carefully selecting appropriate texts and destroying inconvenient ones, it was still not possible to create a comprehensive body of writing to support Christian orthodoxy. The answer was to fabricate suitable material, which was not difficult for an organisation that exercised a strict monopoly over reading and writing. These texts could then be miraculously discovered. This technique has a venerable history, even a among the Jews. For example the book of Deuteronomy had been discovered hidden in the Temple at Jerusalem by King Josiah. This discovery confirmed the King's views during a major doctrinal controversy. It is not now generally regarded as being as miraculous as his supporters thought.
As we have already seen, the early Christians were accused of continuously tampering with their gospels, and the surviving early texts that we have confirm that they did. No two early manuscripts are identical, and scribes felt free to "improve" the text by deleting, moving or amending chunks of it, or by adding their own. Sects accused each other of tampering, and with good cause. Was Jesus an ordinary man, or was he God incarnate? The gospels could be altered to suit the editor's own views. As one early sect said of another "…they laid hands unblushingly on the Holy Scriptures, claiming to have corrected them"*.
It is probably true that not all of the Christians who tampered in this way regarded themselves as dishonest. Perhaps some of them really did think that they were "correcting" the texts, because it was so obvious to them that the texts should have said what they themselves believed.
Throughout the Christian era scholars have known that the scriptures were extensively tampered with. Here for example is Jean Meslier (1664-1729), a French priest who was also an atheist (sic), discussing this point around the year 1700:It is no use saying that the Gospel stories have always been regarded as holy and sacred, and that they have been faithfully preserved without any tampering. It was common practice among the writers who copied these stories to add, delete or alter the text as seemed good to them. The Christians themselves cannot deny this; for St. Jerome said explicitly in many places in his Prologues that the text had been corrupted and falsified, having already been through the hands of many people who added and cut out what they pleased; with the result, as he said, that there were as many different readings as there were different texts*.Some unlikely documents were put into circulation, such as correspondence between Jesus and King Abgar V of Edessa*. In some versions Jesus promised that the city of Edessa would enjoy freedom from conquest. There were bogus records of Jesus" trial, and several forged versions of a letter supposedly sent by Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius concerning the crucifixion. There was also a host of forged letters from the apostles, from the various Marys, and from other gospel characters. Testimonial letters appeared, purportedly from those miraculously healed by Jesus, for example from a blind man whose sight had been restored.
In the sixth century someone, probably a Monophysite Christian, fabricated theological writings that purported to have been written by Dionysius the Areopagite, who is mentioned in Acts 17:34. These writings were accepted as genuine and had a great influence on both Eastern and Western Churches. They were for many centuries the best "proof" of Mary's bodily Assumption into Heaven. Another key document justifying the same doctrine is the Cogitis me, a document purportedly written by St Jerome but almost certainly fabricated by Paschasius Radbert, a ninth century Abbot of Corbie (near Soissons in modern France)*. Claims made by this forgery are still repeated during masses in the Roman Church*.
Letters appeared from St Paul to Aristotle. Paul also supposedly wrote six letters to Seneca, and received eight back. All were Christian forgeries. A second century Christian acting "out of love of Paul" forged a book, the Acts of Paul and Thecla, purporting to describe his activities*. Paul himself had been aware of the danger of forgery. He warned his readers against teachings contained in some letter purporting to be from him and made a point of writing the final passages of his letters in his own hand to prove their authenticity (2 Thessalonians 3:17). The Apostolic Constitutions are another fabrication.
They purport to be written in the name of Jesus" apostles and warn about books falsely claiming to be written in the name of Jesus" apostles. A document called 3 Corinthians is another known forgery, a fabrication by the same priest who forged the Acts of Paul and Thecla. Yet another "orthodox" forgery was the Epistula apostolorum, supposedly written by the eleven disciples remaining after Judas's betrayal.
Bogus lists of bishops were produced to bolster the fiction of apostolic succession for important bishoprics. Bogus accounts of martyrdoms were circulated to bolster the fictions that Christians had been badly persecuted and that they had reacted with great bravery. Given the poor state of Christian scholarship many impositions succeeded for a long time. A popular and influential work concerning the Virgin Mary claimed that she was elected Queen of the Temple Virgins as a young girl, and that bishops came to venerate her*.
Apparently it did not occur to the author or his readers that there could not have been any bishops at that time. Letters from Mary Magdalene to Lazarus discovered as late as the nineteenth century fooled many Church scholars, despite the fact that they were written in French. A work falsely ascribed to Albertus Magnus (c.1193-1280), who became St Albert, was regarded with such awe on account of its supposed authorship that no one noticed until 1952 that it contradicted his known views*.
Many of these forgeries should have been easy to detect, even those not written in French. They included anachronisms and other simple mistakes. For example, early Jewish Christians were known as Ebionites from the Hebrew term meaning the poor, but Tertullian assumed that they were named after a man called Ebion. Soon, Christians were quoting from the writings of the odious Ebion, in order to refute his followers*. Letters were exchanged between people who were not contemporaries, or else discussed people who were not yet born, or mentioned cities that were not yet founded. There were letters too from characters such as Prester John, a fictitious Christian ruler in the distant Orient.
Since standards of Church scholarship were not high, almost any imposture was likely to succeed.
Not only were new works fabricated, genuine ones were doctored. Passages were inserted into non-Christian works in order to suggest that even non-Christians were impressed by Jesus or by Christianity. A sympathetic reference to Jesus was for example inserted into the writings of the historian Josephus*. Writings of other Church Fathers were doctored to suit current tastes. When Irenaeus of Lyons's tract against heresies was translated into Latin in the early fifth century, the opportunity was taken to omit those parts that by then had themselves come to smack of heresy.
When Rufinus of Aquileia translated Origen's On First Principles he openly admitted that he had altered the text to make it conform to current orthodox thought. Origen himself had held that it was acceptable to lie to less intelligent Christians, as long as it bolstered belief. Generally it seems that many Christians felt free to manipulate facts in favour of what they perceived as divine truth. Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth (c.170), protested that other Christians were changing and forging his letters, just as they had tampered with the scriptures*:
When my fellow Christians invited me to write letters to them I did so. These the devil's apostles have filled with tares, taking away some things and adding others. For them the woe is reserved. Small wonder then if some of them have dared to tamper even with the word of the Lord Himself, when they have conspired to mutilate my own humble efforts.
More at SOURCE:http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity....abricating.htm
Last edited by Katweezel; May 3rd, 2012 at 12:58 AM.
Your author only goes back to the oldest complete document. Lots of complete books of the bible and fragments of books exist that date to much older. The oldest fragments of the gospels date to before the temple was destroyed in 70AD and were found in Kumran with the Dead Sea Scrolls. These don't show evidence that tampering occurred later but shows agreement. Your author carefully ignores the oldest evidence because it doesn't fit his agenda rather it disproves it.
What gets me is the fact that investigators find hundreds, maybe even thousands of minor errors, transcriptions, etc. in the sacred scriptures, and then conclude it is unreliable, overlooking a simple thing like the hundreds of thousands of words that are absolutely correct. They also ascribe super powers to the early church leaders to orchestrate their phenomenal deception all in lockstep over several hundred years to obtain the "approved" version of the Bible we have today. It is really funny. Those without faith can only find reasons NOT to believe, while those with faith see the obvious validity of the sacred texts. And isn't it interesting that some of the most confounding texts, which seem to defy human reasoning, were allowed to stay. Take for instance the teaching that Jesus was not only a great prophet, but actually God Himself in the flesh, or the teaching that God is three persons in one God. Why not make it easy on the folks? If they were bent on making the belief system attractive to the widest range of people, why allow these stumbling blocks to remain. And there is the Catholic doctrine, taken right out of the Holy Scriptures, that Jesus changed bread and wine into His Body and Blood and gave that same power to His apostles. As the Scriptures said, even the Jews could not abide by that one and began leaving Him as He preached they must eat His Body and drink His Blood in order to have eternal life. That is not exactly a crowd pleaser. The truth of the gospels are so obvious and yet so impossible to see without the gift of faith. I pray that all might receive the gift of faith.
Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10 Apa trece, pietrele ramān.
To will one thing. Soren Kierkegaard
#8 of 50. The Bible is a mish-mash of convoluted nonsense, misinterpretations and deliberate falsifications.
Christianity is in CrisisNobody disputes that Jesus was a devoted Jew, and he lost his life for Jewish causes. While Jesus was alive he did not change any of the Jewish laws. At that time Judaism was under assault from the competition from the Romans' Pagan Religion. Jesus was preaching to his fellow Jews to preserve and to practice Judaism in its entirety and do not astray from the Laws of Moses. Then, how can we accept that "in the name of Jesus" all these changes have been done to the Judaism that this is not Judaism any more!? And all these changes were revealed after Jesus was gone!? How simple minded one can get!?
In Gospels we repeatedly read: "so that the scripture could be fulfilled". If the scriptures are the documents which they are supposed to be fulfilled exactly, that even Jesus was bound to fulfill their strict instructions and they could not be violated in any shape or form, then how can we accept the new instructions from Paul which they grossly violate the Scriptures!? How did Paul get such a prominent position to over-ride the scriptures!?
Mathew: 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill."
John: 15:10 . . . I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.
So, if Christians really want to follow Jesus then they have to follow Judaism.
Christianity is an adaptation of the Judaism and the Romans' Pagan Religion. Caesar Augustus was a god, so by the tradition of the Romans' Pagan Religion Jesus was declared God. How can the Christian Church invite its followers to worship Trinity, this idea Totally Violates the First Commandment!? And this is exactly the essence what Jesus was preaching against. This is quite unlikely that Jesus lived his entire life as a Jew and he was urging his fellow Jews to preserve Judaism, and after he died his spirit reversed all his teachings and started Christianity! Christianity is totally a New Religion, which contradicts the Judaism to its entire core beliefs.
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All those early CRUCIAL CHANGES were initiated ONLY by Apostle Paul, who claimed he had seen a vision of Jesus on the Road to Damascus. After seeing Jesus vision Paul whole heartily was devoted to Jesus movement. Barnabas, who was a friend of Paul, helped him to be accepted into the Jesus Community in Jerusalem. Jesus community in Jerusalem was the Headquarter of the Jesus movement. The leaderships in Jerusalem were consisted of the Super Apostles, who had been with Jesus when he was alive. After that introduction in Jerusalem, Apostle Paul joined his friend Barnabas who already had established a Jesus community at the city Antioch, about 300 miles north of Jerusalem.From the beginning Paul was seeking to promote Jesus brotherhood to the Gentiles. Apostle Paul convinced the leaderships in Jerusalem to authorize him to recruit the Gentiles into the Jesus Movement. Paul acquired a letter from the Jerusalem leadership to pursue his vision in recruiting the Gentiles.
Apostle Paul knew he had to make it easy for the new recruits in order to convert them. Paul was very open-minded in this issue. He had much bigger ambition for the Jesus brotherhood movement. So Apostle Paul relaxed the Jewish bloodline requirement, circumcision requirement, and the kosher food requirement for the new Gentile recruits. So in Antioch Jesus community there were two tables for their meals, one for Jews with kosher food and one for Gentiles. To improve the community fellowship Paul was persuading the two groups join each other's table and ignore the formality of the setup. At this point Apostle Peter was also living in Antioch community and he did not object to any of the rules which Apostle Paul was implementing.
Everything was fine, until couple observers from the Jerusalem leaderships arrived to examine the progress in the Antioch community. These observers were astounded to see how grossly Judaism had been violated. They strongly objected to the Antioch community arrangement. They totally dismissed Paul for such a setup. They charged that the Sacred Laws of the Judaism had been violated to its core. Apostle Peter who was participating in Gentile meal table, then he withdrew and Joined to the Jewish kosher meal table. The following Passage is from Galatians which it describes Apostle Paul's outrage of the incident:
Paul Rebukes Peter
Galatians 2:11 But when Cephas (This individual is generally identified with the Apostle Peter ) came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he had clearly done wrong. 2:12 Until certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself because he was afraid of those who were pro-circumcision. 2:13 And the rest of the Jews also joined with him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray with them by their hypocrisy.
In Jesus community in Antioch Paul's views were totally pushed aside. This incident very clearly indicates that all the surviving Super Apostles unanimously rejected Paul's position and Paul's revelations. Now that the entire surviving Super Apostle rejected Paul's revelations then how can we accept them as genuine instructions from Jesus? This proves Paul's revelations are void.
It defies any logic that Jesus for such Major Reversals in his own belief system and the initiation of such Critical Changes to the Judaism he would have completely ignored all his beloved Disciples, and he only had communicated such Earth Shaking Changes just with Apostle Paul. It is inconceivable that we ignore Jesus personal beliefs when he was alive along with all the Super Apostles beliefs and just simply depend on Paul's words. How did Apostle Paul acquire such a prominent position which he even over-rides Jesus? Apostle Paul was a very clever man. He knew absolutely there was no chance for him to suggest those changes on his own account then he implemented them in the name of Jesus.
After the confrontation in Antioch community Paul was very disappointed and he traveled to the cities in Greece, Macedonia, and Asia Minor to establish his own version of Jesus movements fresh. Paul was promoting a version of Judaism which would bring Jews and Gentiles together for a unified brotherhood without emphasizing on the Jewish laws and the Jewish bloodline. This is the version which at the end succeeded and was labeled as the Christianity Faith. Paul's letters and his vision of making the brotherhood movement easy for the new Roman converts were the keys for the creation and the success of the Christianity. We can confidently claim that Apostle Paul on his own initiative used Jesus' Fame to establish the new Christianity Faith.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Paul's revelation: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
Here, Jesus is telling Paul, that those Jesus followers are his disciples, and he approves of them. Then, when the Super Apostles rejected the changes which Paul was trying to implement in the Antioch community, that meant they rejected Paul's view altogether. This is a very simple logic, which clearly impeaches Paul's revelation.
Professor Garry Wills had a conversation with Charlie Rose on Nov 29, 2006, about his latest book "What Paul Meant". Professor Garry Wills mentioned 6 of the 13 letters which are attributed to Paul, they are not his! Professor Garry Wills said: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" is not Paul's! Luke on his own added that story!
In this scenario, then the credibility of the whole Bible vanishes! Why did Luke make up a false story!? Then how can we trust on any part of Luke Gospel!? If Luke Gospel can not be trusted, then that discredits the New Testaments altogether!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *We can not accept that those changes happened maybe because after the crucifixion Jesus changed his mind and he realized Judaism was no good any more!
Or, claim that maybe then, the Resurrected Jesus got in charge of the divinity, and he changed some of the sacred laws which God had sent earlier! Then, we need to ask; did God approve of what his beloved Son was doing to his sacred laws!? Did God approve his Chosen People to be cursed like that!?
Or maybe we supposed to believe that by then God was retired!?
We can not act like a retarded person and ignore all these revealing accounts.
It is ironic for the people who scientifically are the most advanced civilizations they follow such incoherent theology! It seems when it comes to digest their spiritual beliefs the Dark Ages has never left them. Where is the Logic which has achieved them so much glory? A high school student would have stronger Logic and shows far more Intelligence than this!
I do feel the pain and the distress which this view would inflect on the followers of the Abrahamic Faith. And I do sympathize with their dilemma. This is very disorienting for them to lose the safety of their familiar Faith. But all of us are empowered to endure and to absorb these challenges for our growth. Mentally our lives are not meant to be easy. Sometimes through the hardship we learn the most enlightening messages of our lives.
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Even though most Christian groups emphasis that Gospels are word of God but in 1965 POPE PAUL VI held Vatican 2nd Council for the affairs and the theology of the Catholic Church. That Council adopted NOSTRA AETATE. That document rejects any ill-feelings towards non-Christians. The document reversed the Christian doctrine of hatred toward the Jews, who were blamed for the crucifixion of Jesus. Also, on March 2000 POPE JOHN PAUL II apologized for the Church's prosecution of Jews throughout the Church history. Also, in 1969 the Protestant Church repudiated Martin Luther teaching on the Jews, and in 2002 a new revision was announced.http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/v2non.htm
So, the Christian Church does not really consider the Gospels as words of God. Otherwise how could they alter the words of God?
Gospel of Mathew regarding Jews: 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could do nothing, but that instead a riot was starting, he took some water, washed his hands before the crowd and said, "I am innocent of this man's blood. You take care of it yourselves!" 27:25 In reply all the people said, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"
Gospel of John regarding Jews: 8:44 You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.
The Synod of ELVIRA was held in 306 AD, and was attended by bishops, and presbyters, mostly from Spain. The Synod passed eighty one Latin canons. The Synod also defined the Christian position against the Jews. The Church seized the opportunity to please the Romans at the expense of the Jews. Christians were forbidden to marry Jews. By issuing a hate doctrine against the Jews the church authorities were trying to put all the Jesus crucifixions blame on Jews' shoulders. This verdict left the Romans innocent of any evil deeds, and this paved the path toward Emperor Constantine conversion to Christianity. In 306 AD Emperor Constantine Converted to Christianity. Any conscious human beings would utterly resent this ugly politics. I suspect at this time Church also altered the content of the Gospels to justify its new doctrine.
The doctrine that Jesus crucifixion was caused and was blamed on Jews were resonant by other revelations all throughout the Christian history, here I would like to mention the views of SAINT HILDEGARD VON BINGEN (1098-1179) and Martin Luther (1483-1546):
Hildegard's revelations revealed Jews' conduct on Jesus crucifixion was the Haynes crime against God and the humanity. Hildegard revelation gave the idea wiping out the Jews from the surface of the earth would prepare for the second coming of Christ and establishment of God's Kingdom on earth. That caused the crusaders' mass killing of thousands of Jews all over Europe.
In 1938, on Martin Luther's birthday, Nazis and their supporters went throughout Germany and broke Jewish shops, destroyed Jewish synagogues. It was the "night of broken glass," the Kristallnacht. At the same day, one of the Nazi bishops published a treatise with excerpts, some of the most horrible excerpts from Luther's anti-Jewish writings. And in the preface, he said, "At the time the western democracies are criticizing us for the treatment of the Jews, it is time for the Germans to hear from that great German hero, Martin Luther, the great prophet of his people against the Jews.
Martin Luther: "Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them."
Martin Luther: "However, they have not acquired a perfect mastery of the art of lying; they lie so clumsily and ineptly that anyone who is just a little observant can easily detect it. But for us Christians they stand as a terrifying example of God's wrath."
Read the remainder at SOURCE: http://www.thetruthshall.com/ChristianityinCrisis.htm