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Thread: 50 Reason Why The Bible Lacks Credibility IMO

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    #8 of 50. The Bible is a mish-mash of convoluted nonsense, misinterpretations and deliberate falsifications.

    Christianity is in Crisis



    Nobody disputes that Jesus was a devoted Jew
    Jesus could not have been just a devoted Jew. He claimed to be the Son of God, so He was either a liar, or He was the Son of God, but not just a devoted Jew.

    On the relaxation of the Jewish Kosher laws, it was not only Paul, but Peter also, who received a vision in which God showed him that all meats were from God and for the use of man.

    Another discrepancy is the fact that it was not Paul alone who decided that the gospel was to be preached to non-Jews. You may read in the NT how in the beginning, Peter, as chief of the apostles, and the other apostles, required that a person first become a Jew before they could become a Christian. In Peter's early view, Christianity was an evolution of Judaism, or as some call it, the completion of Judaism, declaring that the Messiah had come, and promulgating His teachings. However, when Peter met with Paul in Jerusalem, he was persuaded that Paul had an authentic word from God and that Christianity was for everyone, not just Jews. Peter then discontinued his requirement of learning Judaism by converts in order to become Christians. It was not just the story of Paul's conversion that was convincing in this regard, but the fact that when Paul and his followers laid hands on non-Jews they were filled with the Holy Spirit, just as what happened at Pentecost, so that people were exhibiting the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as prophesying and speaking in tongues.

    As for blaming the Jews for Jesus' death, it is true in one sense and false in another. It was Jews and the Jewish leaders who had Jesus put to death. That's just a fact. But it is crazy to extend that to mean that "all" Jews are responsible for Jesus' death. Jesus' loyal disciples were Jews, His Mother was Jewish, and none of them were responsible for His death. Also, there were many Jews who did not have any involvement in the sentencing of Jesus to die on the cross.

    As always, those who want to discredit Christianity can always find something to twist around and make their case. But it just isn't so. Jesus claimed to be God. He is either a liar or he is God. WUit trying to make Him out to be just a holy man or a devout Jew.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by shred View Post
    You get respect by giving respect. If you don't show respect how will anyone respect you and your opinion or beliefs. It is up to everyone to make up their own minds. As long as they don't spew hate or condone evil doing why should I have a problem with it.
    Here's why you should have a problem with it. If you even bother to take a cursory look at history, you'll find one of the main causes of atrocities, wars, persecutions, pogroms, mass murders and various other inhumanities has been (and remains) RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
    Dogma schmogma

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    #9 of 50. Interpretations of the Bible differ among groups, and are subject to the 'evolution of theologians'.

    THE ATONEMENT (in the opinion of scholar, James McDonald.)

    ... Christ; Who suffered for our salvation... The Creed of St Athanasius

    "Christianity teaches that mankind was reconciled to God through the sacrificial death of Christ. The idea is based on God's known requirement for sacrifices in the Old Testament, and a number of New Testament passages. It also looks like a primitive 'aversion sacrifice'. Jesus' blood keeps the Devil at bay. Unfortunately the exact mechanism for the Atonement has never been explained. As one authority on Christian doctrine says:

    There is no authoritative decision or consensus of teaching which commits the Church to any theory about the details of the method of the Atonement.


    The prevailing view among the Church Fathers, and the view generally accepted for 1000 years, was that the sacrifice was a ransom paid to Satan. St Amselm in the eleventh century saw it as a ransom paid not to Satan but to God, and in time this became the predominant view. Article 31 of the 39 Articles sees it as a propitiation and satisfaction but avoids mentioning to whom it was paid. In recent years many have seen Jesus' death not as a propitiatory sacrifice, but merely as an example to mankind.

    A traditional teaching is that Masses constitute further propitiatory sacrifices for mankind, but such ideas were rejected by Protestants and by the Church of England. They are described in Article 31 of the 39 Articles as blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits.
    "

    From: Beyond Belief P 143
    Last edited by Katweezel; May 4th, 2012 at 08:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Here's why you should have a problem with it. If you even bother to take a cursory look at history, you'll find one of the main causes of atrocities, wars, persecutions, pogroms, mass murders and various other inhumanities has been (and remains) RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
    Ah, so you prefer people with non-religious points of view like fascism, communism, and other forms of totalitarianism? Yes, those beliefs do not result in atrocities, wars, persecutions, pogroms, mass murders and various inhumanities. The millions of its own people that Stalin-ruled Russia murdered were only done for attitudinal adjustment. And Herr Hitler was merely cleansing the gene pool. Yes, we have to beware of those religious zealots. Thank you for warning me!
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    #9 of 50. Interpretations of the Bible differ among groups, and are subject to the 'evolution of theologians'.

    THE ATONEMENT (in the opinion of scholar, James McDonald.)

    ... Christ; Who suffered for our salvation... The Creed of St Athanasius

    "Christianity teaches that mankind was reconciled to God through the sacrificial death of Christ. The idea is based on God's known requirement for sacrifices in the Old Testament, and a number of New Testament passages. It also looks like a primitive 'aversion sacrifice'. Jesus' blood keeps the Devil at bay. Unfortunately the exact mechanism for the Atonement has never been explained. As one authority on Christian doctrine says:

    There is no authoritative decision or consensus of teaching which commits the Church to any theory about the details of the method of the Atonement.


    The prevailing view among the Church Fathers, and the view generally accepted for 1000 years, was that the sacrifice was a ransom paid to Satan. St Amselm in the eleventh century saw it as a ransom paid not to Satan but to God, and in time this became the predominant view. Article 31 of the 39 Articles sees it as a propitiation and satisfaction but avoids mentioning to whom it was paid. In recent years many have seen Jesus' death not as a propitiatory sacrifice, but merely as an example to mankind.

    A traditional teaching is that Masses constitute further propitiatory sacrifices for mankind, but such ideas were rejected by Protestants and by the Church of England. They are described in Article 31 of the 39 Articles as blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits.
    "

    From: Beyond Belief P 143
    So what you are saying is that there are differences of opinion among Christians as to certain meanings. Gee. Maybe that explains why there are carious Christian denominations. And, true, not every thing about Christianity is fully understood. There are many mysteries. But there is an authority for teaching the Christian faith, at least according to my church, and that is the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

    Might as well wade on out into the deep water while we're at it and talk about infallibility. Selah!

    The Magisterium or Teaching Authority of the Church

    by Fr. William G. Most

    By the Magisterium we mean the teaching office of the Church. It consists of the Pope and Bishops. Christ promised to protect the teaching of the Church : "He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects your rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10. 16). Now of course the promise of Christ cannot fail: hence when the Church presents some doctrine as definitive or final, it comes under this protection, it cannot be in error; in other words, it is infallible. This is true even if the Church does not use the solemn ceremony of definition. The day to day teaching of the Church throughout the world, when the Bishops are in union with each other and with the Pope, and present something as definitive, this is infallible. (Vatican II, Lumen gentium # 25). It was precisely by the use of that authority that Vatican I was able to define that the Pope alone, when speaking as such and making things definitive, is also infallible. Of course this infallibility covers also teaching on what morality requires, for that is needed for salvation.

    more -- http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura4.htm
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Default Pope JP Ask Forgiveness Speech March 2000

    POPE JOHN PAUL II ASKS FOR FORGIVENESS (MARCH 12, 2000)
    CONFESSION OF SINS AND ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS
    March 12, 2000
    Introduction
    The Holy Father: Brothers and Sisters, let us turn with trust to God our Father, who is merciful and compassionate, slow to anger, great in love and fidelity, and ask him to accept the repentance of his people who humbly confess their sins, and to grant them mercy.
    [All pray for a moment in silence.]


    I. Confession of Sins in General
    Cardinal Bernardin Gantin: Let us pray that our confession and repentance will be inspired by the Holy Spirit, that our sorrow will be conscious and deep, and that, humbly viewing the sins of the past in an authentic "purification of memory", we will be committed to the path of true conversion. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: Lord God, your pilgrim Church, which you ever sanctify in the blood of your Son, counts among her children in every age members whose holiness shines brightly forth and members whose disobedience to you contradicts the faith we profess and the Holy Gospel. You, who remain ever faithful, even when we are unfaithful, forgive our sins and grant that we may bear true witness to you before all men and women. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen.


    Cantor: Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    The assembly repeats: Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    II. Confession of Sins Committed in the Service of Truth
    Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: Let us pray that each one of us, looking to the Lord Jesus, meek and humble of heart, will recognize that even men of the Church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel in the solemn duty of defending the truth. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: Lord, God of all men and women, in certain periods of history Christians have at times given in to intolerance and have not been faithful to the great commandment of love, sullying in this way the face of the Church, your Spouse. Have mercy on your sinful children and accept our resolve to seek and promote truth in the gentleness of charity, in the firm knowledge that truth can prevail only in virtue of truth itself. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    III. Confession of Sins which have Harmed the unity of the body of Christ
    Cardinal Roger Etchegaray: Let us pray that our recognition of the sins which have rent the unity of the Body of Christ and wounded fraternal charity will facilitate the way to reconciliation and communion among all Christians. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: Merciful Father, on the night before his Passion your Son prayed for the unity of those who believe in him: in disobedience to his will, however, believers have opposed one another, becoming divided, and have mutually condemned one another and fought against one another. We urgently implore your forgiveness and we beseech the gift of a repentant heart, so that all Christians, reconciled with you and with one another will be able, in one body and in one spirit, to experience anew the joy of full communion. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    IV. Confession of the Sins Against the People of Israel
    Cardinal Edward Cassidy: Let us pray that, in recalling the sufferings endured by the people of Israel throughout history, Christians will acknowledge the sins committed by not a few of their number against the people of the Covenant and the blessings, and in this way will purify their hearts. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: God of our fathers, you chose Abraham and his descendants to bring your Name to the Nations: we are deeply saddened by the behaviour of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    V. Confession of Sins Committed in Action Against Love, Peace, the Rights of Peoples, and Respect for Cultures and Religions
    Archbishop Stephen Fumio Hamao: Let us pray that contemplating Jesus, our Lord and our Peace, Christians will be able to repent of the words and attitudes caused by pride, by hatred, by the desire to dominate others, by enmity towards members of other religions and towards the weakest groups in society, such as immigrants and itinerants. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: Lord of the world, Father of all, through your Son you asked us to love our enemies, to do good to those who hate us and to pray for those who persecute us. Yet Christians have often denied the Gospel; yielding to a mentality of power, they have violated the rights of ethnic groups and peoples, and shown contempt for their cultures and religious traditions: be patient and merciful towards us, and grant us your forgiveness! We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    VI. Confession of Sins Against the Diginity of Women and the Unity of The Human Race
    Cardinal Francis Arinze: Let us pray for all those who have suffered offences against their human dignity and whose rights have been trampled; let us pray for women, who are all too often humiliated and emarginated, and let us acknowledge the forms of acquiescence in these sins of which Christians too have been guilty. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: Lord God, our Father, you created the human being, man and woman, in your image and likeness and you willed the diversity of peoples within the unity of the human family. At times, however, the equality of your sons and daughters has not been acknowledged, and Christians have been guilty of attitudes of rejection and exclusion, consenting to acts of discrimination on the basis of racial and ethnic differences. Forgive us and grant us the grace to heal the wounds still present in your community on account of sin, so that we will all feel ourselves to be your sons and daughters. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    VII. Confession of SUns in Relation to the Fundamental Rights of the Person
    Archbishop François Xavier Nguyên Van Thuân: Let us pray for all the men and women of the world, especially for minors who are victims of abuse, for the poor, the alienated, the disadvantaged; let us pray for those who are most defenceless, the unborn killed in their mother's womb or even exploited for experimental purposes by those who abuse the promise of biotechnology and distort the aims of science. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: God, our Father, you always hear the cry of the poor. How many times have Christians themselves not recognized you in the hungry, the thirsty and the naked, in the persecuted, the imprisoned, and in those incapable of defending themselves, especially in the first stages of life. For all those who have committed acts of injustice by trusting in wealth and power and showing contempt for the "little ones" who are so dear to you, we ask your fogiveness: have mercy on us and accept our repentance. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    Concluding Prayer
    The Holy Father: Most merciful Father, your Son, Jesus Christ, the judge of the living and the dead, in the humility of his first coming redeemed humanity from sin and in his glorious return he will demand an account of every sin. Grant that our forebears, our brothers and sisters, and we, your servants, who by the grace of the Holy Spirit turn back to you in whole-hearted repentance, may experience your mercy and receive the forgiveness of our sins. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen.
    [As a sign of penance and veneration the Holy Father embraces and kisses the Crucifix.]

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    SOURCE: http://www.sacredheart.edu/pages/126...h_12_2000_.cfm
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    We'll get back to your magical Magisterium soon enuff. In the meantime, I dug up the transcript of Pope JP's apology speech transcript in all its glory. Ratzinger admits some (few) sins by Church officials during the Inquisition. (Nice of him...) I called the 'apology' a sham, and let's just use two examples to start with. 1 JP never mentions the word Holocaust in his Jew-apology. Could this have been because of 'Hitler's Pope' and RCC compliance with Nazi Jew-extermination? 2 Both Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope JP neglect to mention the word Inquisition. WTF? A REAL, HONEST AND TRUTHFUL so-called apology would certainly acknowledge that there were in fact FOUR Inquisitions and the Vatican played the lead (and only) role in all four of them, over 700 years. Where is the acknowledgement of the millions of innocent victims so cruelly put to death during that long and dark period? (Yes the Vatican only takes responsibility for 6000 murders, victims of 'a few bad popes.' See their own website.)

    WHEN MIGHT WE EXPECT A PROPER AND MEANINGFUL "APOLOGY" FOR ALL THE CATHOLIC INQUISITIONS AND ALL THOSE TERRIBLE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY THAT WENT ON FOR SO LONG?
    Dogma schmogma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    POPE JOHN PAUL II ASKS FOR FORGIVENESS (MARCH 12, 2000)
    CONFESSION OF SINS AND ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS
    March 12, 2000
    Introduction
    The Holy Father: Brothers and Sisters, let us turn with trust to God our Father, who is merciful and compassionate, slow to anger, great in love and fidelity, and ask him to accept the repentance of his people who humbly confess their sins, and to grant them mercy.
    [All pray for a moment in silence.]


    I. Confession of Sins in General
    Cardinal Bernardin Gantin: Let us pray that our confession and repentance will be inspired by the Holy Spirit, that our sorrow will be conscious and deep, and that, humbly viewing the sins of the past in an authentic "purification of memory", we will be committed to the path of true conversion. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: Lord God, your pilgrim Church, which you ever sanctify in the blood of your Son, counts among her children in every age members whose holiness shines brightly forth and members whose disobedience to you contradicts the faith we profess and the Holy Gospel. You, who remain ever faithful, even when we are unfaithful, forgive our sins and grant that we may bear true witness to you before all men and women. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen.


    Cantor: Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    The assembly repeats: Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    II. Confession of Sins Committed in the Service of Truth
    Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: Let us pray that each one of us, looking to the Lord Jesus, meek and humble of heart, will recognize that even men of the Church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel in the solemn duty of defending the truth. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: Lord, God of all men and women, in certain periods of history Christians have at times given in to intolerance and have not been faithful to the great commandment of love, sullying in this way the face of the Church, your Spouse. Have mercy on your sinful children and accept our resolve to seek and promote truth in the gentleness of charity, in the firm knowledge that truth can prevail only in virtue of truth itself. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    III. Confession of Sins which have Harmed the unity of the body of Christ
    Cardinal Roger Etchegaray: Let us pray that our recognition of the sins which have rent the unity of the Body of Christ and wounded fraternal charity will facilitate the way to reconciliation and communion among all Christians. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: Merciful Father, on the night before his Passion your Son prayed for the unity of those who believe in him: in disobedience to his will, however, believers have opposed one another, becoming divided, and have mutually condemned one another and fought against one another. We urgently implore your forgiveness and we beseech the gift of a repentant heart, so that all Christians, reconciled with you and with one another will be able, in one body and in one spirit, to experience anew the joy of full communion. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    IV. Confession of the Sins Against the People of Israel
    Cardinal Edward Cassidy: Let us pray that, in recalling the sufferings endured by the people of Israel throughout history, Christians will acknowledge the sins committed by not a few of their number against the people of the Covenant and the blessings, and in this way will purify their hearts. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: God of our fathers, you chose Abraham and his descendants to bring your Name to the Nations: we are deeply saddened by the behaviour of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    V. Confession of Sins Committed in Action Against Love, Peace, the Rights of Peoples, and Respect for Cultures and Religions
    Archbishop Stephen Fumio Hamao: Let us pray that contemplating Jesus, our Lord and our Peace, Christians will be able to repent of the words and attitudes caused by pride, by hatred, by the desire to dominate others, by enmity towards members of other religions and towards the weakest groups in society, such as immigrants and itinerants. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: Lord of the world, Father of all, through your Son you asked us to love our enemies, to do good to those who hate us and to pray for those who persecute us. Yet Christians have often denied the Gospel; yielding to a mentality of power, they have violated the rights of ethnic groups and peoples, and shown contempt for their cultures and religious traditions: be patient and merciful towards us, and grant us your forgiveness! We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    VI. Confession of Sins Against the Diginity of Women and the Unity of The Human Race
    Cardinal Francis Arinze: Let us pray for all those who have suffered offences against their human dignity and whose rights have been trampled; let us pray for women, who are all too often humiliated and emarginated, and let us acknowledge the forms of acquiescence in these sins of which Christians too have been guilty. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: Lord God, our Father, you created the human being, man and woman, in your image and likeness and you willed the diversity of peoples within the unity of the human family. At times, however, the equality of your sons and daughters has not been acknowledged, and Christians have been guilty of attitudes of rejection and exclusion, consenting to acts of discrimination on the basis of racial and ethnic differences. Forgive us and grant us the grace to heal the wounds still present in your community on account of sin, so that we will all feel ourselves to be your sons and daughters. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    VII. Confession of SUns in Relation to the Fundamental Rights of the Person
    Archbishop François Xavier Nguyên Van Thuân: Let us pray for all the men and women of the world, especially for minors who are victims of abuse, for the poor, the alienated, the disadvantaged; let us pray for those who are most defenceless, the unborn killed in their mother's womb or even exploited for experimental purposes by those who abuse the promise of biotechnology and distort the aims of science. [Silent prayer.]
    The Holy Father: God, our Father, you always hear the cry of the poor. How many times have Christians themselves not recognized you in the hungry, the thirsty and the naked, in the persecuted, the imprisoned, and in those incapable of defending themselves, especially in the first stages of life. For all those who have committed acts of injustice by trusting in wealth and power and showing contempt for the "little ones" who are so dear to you, we ask your fogiveness: have mercy on us and accept our repentance. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]


    Concluding Prayer
    The Holy Father: Most merciful Father, your Son, Jesus Christ, the judge of the living and the dead, in the humility of his first coming redeemed humanity from sin and in his glorious return he will demand an account of every sin. Grant that our forebears, our brothers and sisters, and we, your servants, who by the grace of the Holy Spirit turn back to you in whole-hearted repentance, may experience your mercy and receive the forgiveness of our sins. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen.
    [As a sign of penance and veneration the Holy Father embraces and kisses the Crucifix.]

    Previous Page Back to Roman Catholic Documents and Statements Next Page


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    SOURCE: http://www.sacredheart.edu/pages/126...h_12_2000_.cfm
    Now, that's a church I can believe in! Humility and contrition are the foundation of religion and all the saints have possessed these virtues.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Now, that's a church I can believe in! Humility and contrition are the foundation of religion and all the saints have possessed these virtues.
    I did not post that pompous Vatican stuff just so you could enjoy yet another mass, written by tired old men, with not a woman in sight as usual. So this time I'm trying to focus your attention on just this paragraph:


    II. Confession of Sins Committed in the Service of Truth
    Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: Let us pray that each one of us, looking to the Lord Jesus, meek and humble of heart, will recognize that even men of the Church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel in the solemn duty of defending the truth. [Silent prayer.]


    The Holy Father: Lord, God of all men and women, in certain periods of history Christians have at times given in to intolerance and have not been faithful to the great commandment of love, sullying in this way the face of the Church, your Spouse. Have mercy on your sinful children and accept our resolve to seek and promote truth in the gentleness of charity, in the firm knowledge that truth can prevail only in virtue of truth itself. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]

    Note Ratzinger's grudging admission of sin for 'even men of the church' ... used methods... blah blah. Note no mention of any Inquisition. It was pathetically brief and to a point, (without making one!) and the message is totally lost in gross generalization. Although this is the Cardinal of the Inquisition Department speaking, it's obvious that Inquisition topic is best left alone, not mentioned and glossed over. ONE thing we can thank Ratzy for; He ADMITS SOME church wrongdoings without going into detail. Of course, how could he go into those terrible 700-year details?

    As for the holy father, his little speech (twice as long as Ratzy's!) is also lost in gross generalization; but this time the pope at least admits "Christians" - (without mentioning Church officials of course) - DID sully the face of the church and they were just sinful children. JP's neat little homily says nothing much really, except being further doctrinal propaganda and serves only the church, totally as expected. Meanwhile, WHEN IS THE VATICAN EVER GOING TO GIVE A PROPER AND MEANINGFUL APOLOGY FOR ITS TERRIBLE INQUISITIONS?
    Dogma schmogma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    I did not post that pompous Vatican stuff just so you could enjoy yet another mass, written by tired old men, with not a woman in sight as usual. So this time I'm trying to focus your attention on just this paragraph:


    II. Confession of Sins Committed in the Service of Truth

    Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: Let us pray that each one of us, looking to the Lord Jesus, meek and humble of heart, will recognize that even men of the Church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel in the solemn duty of defending the truth. [Silent prayer.]



    The Holy Father: Lord, God of all men and women, in certain periods of history Christians have at times given in to intolerance and have not been faithful to the great commandment of love, sullying in this way the face of the Church, your Spouse. Have mercy on your sinful children and accept our resolve to seek and promote truth in the gentleness of charity, in the firm knowledge that truth can prevail only in virtue of truth itself. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
    [A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]

    Note Ratzinger's grudging admission of sin for 'even men of the church' ... used methods... blah blah. Note no mention of any Inquisition. It was pathetically brief and to a point, (without making one!) and the message is totally lost in gross generalization. Although this is the Cardinal of the Inquisition Department speaking, it's obvious that Inquisition topic is best left alone, not mentioned and glossed over. ONE thing we can thank Ratzy for; He ADMITS SOME church wrongdoings without going into detail. Of course, how could he go into those terrible 700-year details?

    As for the holy father, his little speech (twice as long as Ratzy's!) is also lost in gross generalization; but this time the pope at least admits "Christians" - (without mentioning Church officials of course) - DID sully the face of the church and they were just sinful children. JP's neat little homily says nothing much really, except being further doctrinal propaganda and serves only the church, totally as expected. Meanwhile, WHEN IS THE VATICAN EVER GOING TO GIVE A PROPER AND MEANINGFUL APOLOGY FOR ITS TERRIBLE INQUISITIONS?
    For a seemingly intelligent person. your understanding of the ages in which the Inquisition took place is amazingly shortsighted. First of all, Inquisition was directed primarily against member of the Church, not pagans. Secondly, you assume the citizenry were dumb and ignorant sheep who blindly followed whatever the Church said. Wrong. They were from all accounts much more violent in their attitude for the the treatment of heretics than the Church. You assume that the Church pressured the civil authorities to execute convicted heretics. Wrong again. The civil authorities were more representative of the people than the Church. They felt heretics should be executed even against the pressure of the Church in the reverse. Men in those days, quite similar to men in this day, believed in brute force to settle matters. In any case, the entire populace, not just the Catholic Church, were generally of a mind that heresy was a grievous error that should be dealt with with the utmost gravity, unlike today when Catholic American politicians who advocate anti-Catholic positions with not a mention by Church officials on a personal basis (at least, for the most part). Of course, the US is not a Catholic country, nor, some would argue, is it even a Christian country. What the present day Catholic Church preaches is morality and tenets of the faith, not personal attacks (look up Cardinal Dolan-- he was recently interviewed by Bill O'Reilly and said the same thing as I recall). So for instance, instead of condemning Nancy Pelosi, if you're familiar with American political leaders, the Church teaches pro-life, and lets the people draw their own conclusions about who to vote for. That is a very simplistic example-- the Church does not advocate any particular party, and sometimes issues can be mixed in both parties.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  11. #56
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    #10 of 50 - The Bible is riddled with all kinds of Crazy Stuff masquerading as The Inspired Word of God.





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    Crazy Stuff from the Bible





    A more interesting reflection than merely contrasting verses is given at Gospel Contradictions from Positive Atheism. Have I taken things out of context (read here)? Meanwhile read on... "For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12)
    "Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)

    "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." (John 5:31)
    "Jesus answered: Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid." (John 8:14)
    "And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)
    "the whole world is under control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)
    And Jesus said, "For judgement I am come into this world." (John 9:39)
    "I came not to judge the world" (John 12:47)
    "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)
    "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)
    "Jacob said, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Genesis 32:30)
    "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
    We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
    We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
    There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)
    The Arguments from Confusion and Biblical Defects


    Foolery
    "But anyone who says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Jesus) Mat 5:22
    "You fools!" (Jesus) Luke 11:40
    "You blind fools!" (Jesus) Mat 23:17
    "How foolish you are" (Jesus) Luke 24:25
    "But God said to him, 'You fool!' " (Jesus) Luke 12:20
    "You foolish Galatians!" (St. Paul) Galatians 3:1
    "You foolish man" James 2:20
    (Also - Psalms 14:1 and again at 53:1 - you have to think me a fool because I have said in my heart that there is no God - oops, both of us in hell now!)
    Feedback: This "foolery" section has been criticised and is discussed further here.

    Jesus teaches us how to turn the cheek and forgive those who trespass against us...
    "Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father." [Matt. x, 33.]
    "Whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness." [Mark iii, 29.]
    "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee ... tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican." [Matt. xviii, 15-17.]


    Rejoicing
    "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles... If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink... He who rejoices at calamity shall not go unpunished." [Prov. 24:17; 25:21; 17:5]
    "The Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you" [Deut. 28:63]
    "The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance, he will bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked" [Ps. 58:10]


    Mercy
    "Blessed are the merciful" [Matthew 5:7]
    "Leave alive nothing that breathes. Show them no mercy." [Deut. 7:2]
    "The Lord hardened their hearts... that they might receive no mercy." [Joshua 11:20]
    "I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed." [Jer. 13:14; 48:10]


    Love?
    "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children." (Leviticus 26:22)
    "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)
    "The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6)
    "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves." (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)
    "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you." (Deuteronomy 28:53)
    "The Lord said to Joshua [...] 'you are to hamstring their horses.' " (Exceedingly cruel.) (Joshua 11:6)
    "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." (Judges 21:10-12)
    "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass .... And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword." (1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)
    "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their women with child ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
    "A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work!
    A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!" (Jeremiah 48:10)
    Is this really the "word of God" or the cruel thoughts of Bronze age warriors?
    Did you know this was in the bible? If not then are you shocked? If you did know it was there then is Christianity really about a healthy loving relationship or is it a case of the Stockholm syndrome?
    Is God A Criminal?


    The bible god admits he performs evil acts. (As if the above was not proof enough!)
    A Christian wrote: "God did not create evil. Evil is simply the state where God is not present."

    If "God did not create evil" then what of the following?

    Isaiah 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    Exodus 32:14
    And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

    Joshua 23:15
    Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things.

    Judges 9:23
    Then God sent an evil spirit

    1 Samuel 16:14
    But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

    2 Samuel 12:11
    Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

    1 Kings 9:9
    ...therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

    1 Kings 14:10
    Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam
    2 Kings 6:33 ...Behold, this evil is of the LORD;

    2 Kings 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

    2 Kings 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place
    2 Chronicles 34:24 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof...
    Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?
    Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
    Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people
    Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them
    Jeremiah 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil
    Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

    Jeremiah 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah
    Jeremiah 45:5 ...behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD:
    Jeremiah 49:37 ...I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them:

    Micah 1:12 .... evil came down from the LORD
    Micah 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil
    “Exodus 22:29-30 "You shall not delay to offer from the fullness of your harvest and from the outflow of your presses. The first-born of your sons you shall give to me. You shall do likewise with your oxen and with your sheep: seven days it shall be with its dam; on the eighth day you shall give it to me.”

    Ezekiel 20:25-26 Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.”



    "It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being." - Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith
    Feedback: I received an email directing me to a claimed refutation that the god portrayed in the bible is evil.
    Click here to see our discussion on this.

    That was the merest snippet! Far more can be had at the Internet infidels Biblical errancy site here.
    Ken Harding's Deconstruction of the Bible
    The Skeptic's Annotated Bible includes the entire text of the King James Version of the Bible, but without the pro-Bible propaganda. Instead, passages are highlighted that are an embarrassment to the Bible-believer, and the parts of the Bible that are never read in any Church, Bible study group, or Sunday School class are emphasized. For it is these passages that test the claims of the Bible-believer. The contradictions and false prophesies show that the Bible is not inerrant; the cruelties, injustices, and insults to women, that its author is neither good nor just. It is time for us all to stop believing in, or pretending to believe in, a book that is so unworthy of belief. (Quoted from the site).



    Christians often write to tell me their various "true interpretations" of some of these verses.
    2 Peter 1:20 "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."



    SOURCE: http://sites.google.com/site/leavingxtianity/babble



    Dogma schmogma

  12. #57
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    Dogma schmogma

  13. #58
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    #11 of 50. What Jesus is alleged to have said was fabricated by early Christian Fathers.

    Dogma schmogma

  14. #59
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    Dogma schmogma

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Here's why you should have a problem with it. If you even bother to take a cursory look at history, you'll find one of the main causes of atrocities, wars, persecutions, pogroms, mass murders and various other inhumanities has been (and remains) RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
    If you take an honest look at history the true cause of these atrocities are corrupt people gaining power within any organization (not just religious) and getting its followers to ignore its teachings which would never condone such atrocities. You still see this today in all kinds of movements. Green movements burn car dealerships. The Sierra Club was busted trashing a Park and trying to frame mountain bikers. Abortion opponents kill doctors that perform them calling it a 160th trimester abortion. Governments attack and occupy countries in the name of any BS they can sell to mindless masses when the real reason is economic or political. Look at what happened in Lybia. The flow of oil to Europe was being disrupted by the rebellion. They had to end the conflict to restore the flow of oil. Al Qada rebels on one side and an evil dictator on the other. They could have backed either group to accomplish their end of restoring the free flow of oil. They picked one of the 2 hard sells and started the propaganda machine to sell it as a just war.

    The people in power obviously couldn't believe what they teach or they wouldn't do things so against what they believe in . They just wanted to have power over people and seem to feel their power is strongest if they lead the sheep to do the opposite of what they believe. Many times their hypocritical decisions are simply for monetary gain or power. Stop deluding yourself that corrupt people gravitating to positions of power over followers is any different between religious groups and nonreligious groups. Just make sure if you trust a leader you only follow as far as your beliefs allow. Most will seem to get off trying to make you do things that are contrary to your beliefs. This is the nature of the type of person that gravitates to these positions of power. You should blame human nature not the organization. The more powerful the organization the more the position of power draws this sort of person. This is what you should cry out against.

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