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Thread: open wide for healthcare!

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by QFIT View Post
    The health care bill does NOT propose gov't control of anything. You have all the same choices. You are believing the insurance company lies.
    As I understand it, businesses will dump their employees into the government option in order to garner a 7 or 8 percent annual savings. Once that transpires, free enterprise within the health care arena is dead. So, no, the bill does not mandate a government takeover, it only makes it inevitable. Constructively then, it does propose government control by making it irresistible to do anything else.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post
    If the free market (with proper regulation) is the best way to provide goods and services then I want that way to handle something as important as health care.

    My argument is health care is to important to not let the free market (best way) decide the price of goods and services.

    Health care is no different then other commodities.
    Can you give an example in the Western industrialized world where an unregulated, free market healthcare system have produced high quality, affordable health care. I don't think so and I think it's because you are wrong about health cre being no different than other commodiites. It's already been pointed out that you appear not to understand how the US government has regulated and financially supported domestic industries for years, but let's just focus on the health care issue.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by QFIT View Post
    Why would anyone non-suicidal NOT want health insurance?

    I forgot. Young people never get leukemia or heart valve problems.

    Where did someone say you have a right to a million dollars?
    I didn't have it until I started accumulating tangible assets. Appealing to my base nature, I figured that if I were to cop leukemia or something random like that, I could arrange to lose my job and I'd have a state medical card in 2 weeks, and probably get better care with that than with a cheap insurance policy. So I could spend my money on insurance and get medical care if I really needed it, or spend my money on titties and beer and get medical care if I really needed it. I'm an AP, guess which I picked.

    Quote Originally Posted by QFIT View Post
    This doesn't seem to be a very Christian neighborhood.
    It's not; we're just the shabbos goyim. Here, let me get that light.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Efficacy View Post
    Which is scarier, corporations or government? Well, corporations are the ones that exist solely to make profits.

    What increases profit? Skimping on care or denying it altogether if it's too expensive.

    Give me the socialism over greedy insurance companies, please.
    With free enterprise, we have the advantage of government overlooking business to ensure they treat consumers fairly. With government in control, who will be the watch dog?

    Do you actually think that with trillions of dollars in play that no opportunities will exist for government officials to enrich themselves and their friends?

    Do you actually believe that government officials, who have been notorious for corruption in the past, will suddenly become virtuous because they won't have the corporations to bribe them, but instead have direct access to the till themselves?

    Power corrupts. This we see every day in our government.

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This we are about to see, and in fact have a foretaste of in the way the Democrats have conducted themselves having the power in both the executive and legislative branches of government, while ignoring the clear will of the majority of Americans. Our political system has become representative of the people in name only. Ideologues have deceived their way into power. Their pet theories, some already implemented, will impoverish the nation, although I have a certain nagging feeling that some of these ideologues themselves will become immensely enriched.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by QFIT View Post
    1. HC is already regulated, as are a vast number of industries. That is not gov't control.

    2. I ignored them because the bill does not propose gov't health care. There is no such proposal.

    3. Actually, Medicaid has an excellent record. And it is vastly superior to public ERs and no preventive medicine, which is what most people on Medicaid would get without it.
    I had a Brother who was on SS disability. Medicaid required him to spend so much of his SS income each year on medicine before it would extend a helping hand that they virtually paid him nothing, even though he was living below the poverty level and was unemployable. It may help some people, I'm thinking of the elderly living in nursing homes, but it is far from a great program. If it is any foretaste of Obamacare, many are in for a rude awakening.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey View Post
    I didn't have it until I started accumulating tangible assets. Appealing to my base nature, I figured that if I were to cop leukemia or something random like that, I could arrange to lose my job and I'd have a state medical card in 2 weeks, and probably get better care with that than with a cheap insurance policy. So I could spend my money on insurance and get medical care if I really needed it, or spend my money on titties and beer and get medical care if I really needed it. I'm an AP, guess which I picked.



    It's not; we're just the shabbos goyim. Here, let me get that light.
    I think you are being facetious but just in case you aren't I doubt that you would qualify for any type of medical assistance if you are a successful AP. Income is not the only measure used in qualifying for Medicaid. Total assets are considered and they can’t be much. You can’t have a car worth more than $5,000.00. You really have to be very poor to qualify. Of course you could try to hide your assets or transfer them to a trusted friend or relative, but once you give them your assets they may not be as trusted as you once thought. Maybe the state you live in is more lenient in regards to qualifications.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diver View Post
    Looks like you've been suckered in by "common knowledge." The Canadians I know are satisfied with their system and laugh at what they hear American say about how Canadian feel. But here's a summary from an article compaing satisfaction with access and quality in Canada, Great Britain and the US. You can read the full article if you want to take the time. While the survey is from 2003, I think it's safe to assume the basic groundwork of all three systems remains in place and if anything Americans' access to affordable healthcare is even worse now.

    "In Great Britain, satisfaction with access to affordable healthcare (43%) is consistent with satisfaction with quality (42%). In Canada, satisfaction with access to affordable healthcare (57%) is slightly higher than satisfaction with quality (52%). But the most dramatic variation in satisfaction with these two facets of the healthcare system occurs in the United States, where only 25% are satisfied with the availability of affordable healthcare, but 48% are satisfied with quality. Once again, this dichotomy seems to support the hypothesis that private healthcare encourages high-quality standards, but may be a barrier to access and affordability."
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/8056/heal...in-canada.aspx
    Everyone is happy with Medicare, too. But that's only because the bill has not come due. I am on Medicare. It should not be for me and others who have the means to pay their own health care costs. I pay into it, and I receive from it, but it is an ill-conceived plan. It should be only used as a safety net for those who cannot take care of themselves. It would then be affordable, and I and others would have to pay a whole lot more out of pocket for health care, but at least it would make sense and would not threaten to bankrupt the country. As it stands, Medicare debt is looming over this country like some future certain Armageddon. In the end, I'll bet Medicare does shrink to a safety net provision, because that is the only level that makes any real sense. The trouble is that because Medicare, SS, and Medicaid taxes are being used for everything under the sun, taxes will continue to remain high even after Medicare, SS and Medicaid are someday cut down to size.

    Why will these programs eventually be cut down to size? Because they are already proven to be unsustainable. Whether by economic collapse or by intelligent design, neither these programs, nor any universal health care program, will last. Do the math. The last time I looked, the internal governmental debt generated by these programs was over $90 trillion dollars and growing rapidly. Two sayings come to mind: There is no free lunch. And, the condemned ate a hearty meal.

    So enjoy it while it lasts, and/or work like h to get your Congressmen and other elected officials to do something about it.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  8. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    I had a Brother who was on SS disability. Medicaid required him to spend so much of his SS income each year on medicine before it would extend a helping hand that they virtually paid him nothing, even though he was living below the poverty level and was unemployable. It may help some people, I'm thinking of the elderly living in nursing homes, but it is far from a great program. If it is any foretaste of Obamacare, many are in for a rude awakening.
    If you receive SS disability you qualify for Medicare. Why your brother was receiving Medicaid and not Medicare I do not know. You should have done a little research and helped your brother out. My wife recently qualified for disability and she is eligible for Medicare in a month. There are insurance companies that are paid directly from Medicare to fill in the gaps and it costs you nothing extra. There is no requirement to spend a certain amount of money for medicine before they help. She will have to fork out a copay for prescriptions and doctor visits but these are in line with good private insurance policies. The max deductible for a hospital stay is only $500. The price she will pay for Medicare is $108.00 a month and nothing for the supplemental insurance. Unfortunately Medicare doesn’t tell you this directly, it leaves it up to the individual to figure that out which I admit is unfair. You are right, Medicare and probably Medicaid by itself limits the benefits and you could be liable for some pretty hefty medical bills.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsscout View Post
    You haven’t a clue in what the HCR bill says. Please take the time to investigate it and stop letting Fox News do your thinking for you. Health insurance companies currently are telling doctors what they will be paid for their services which is about 1/3 to 1/2 of their normal fee. HCR doesn’t change that. So technically health care services are not currently a true free market commodity. The insurance companies regulate health care.

    The example you used about QFIT once again has nothing to do with health care. We can all live without QFIT’s programs and research, although many will say it has helped them tremendously. Health care is entirely a different issue and many cannot live (I mean literally live) without an affordable system. Our current method is seriously flawed.
    There is currently no shortage of health care. Homeless friends of mine received first class treatment at George Washington University Hospital, the same hospital that treated President Reagan when he was shot. They did not pay one penny. The HC bill is about health care insurance, not health care. We can and do live without health care insurance. I am not saying that we do not need health care insurance reform; people should not end up in the poorhouse because of an illness or disease. But health care already exists for everyone. Also, millions of those who do not have insurance can afford it, but do not avail themselves of it. If they go to the poorhouse, it was their decision to take that risk. The only ones who are truly victims are the segment of uninsured who are so through no fault of their own and who have something to lose (financially) if they become ill (unlike my homeless friends). It is that segment of uninsured people who need help.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsscout View Post
    If you receive SS disability you qualify for Medicare. Why your brother was receiving Medicaid and not Medicare I do not know. You should have done a little research and helped your brother out. My wife recently qualified for disability and she is eligible for Medicare in a month. There are insurance companies that are paid directly from Medicare to fill in the gaps and it costs you nothing extra. There is no requirement to spend a certain amount of money for medicine before they help. She will have to fork out a copay for prescriptions and doctor visits but these are in line with good private insurance policies. The max deductible for a hospital stay is only $500. The price she will pay for Medicare is $108.00 a month and nothing for the supplemental insurance. Unfortunately Medicare doesn’t tell you this directly, it leaves it up to the individual to figure that out which I admit is unfair. You are right, Medicare and probably Medicaid by itself limits the benefits and you could be liable for some pretty hefty medical bills.
    Medicare prescription medicine assistance is a recent addition to Medicare. He died several years ago from complications from Diabetes. His need was for expensive drugs that Medicare did not cover.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diver View Post
    Can you give an example in the Western industrialized world where an unregulated, free market healthcare system have produced high quality, affordable health care. I don't think so and I think it's because you are wrong about health cre being no different than other commodiites. It's already been pointed out that you appear not to understand how the US government has regulated and financially supported domestic industries for years, but let's just focus on the health care issue.
    The proposed health care insurance plan is not affordable to the government. Guess who the government is? It doesn't matter that it "seems" affordable at the patient level. If it wrecks the economy, we all pay dearly, more dearly, than with a free enterprise system. Fix the free enterprise system, don't create an even more costly system.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Medicare prescription medicine assistance is a recent addition to Medicare. He died several years ago from complications from Diabetes. His need was for expensive drugs that Medicare did not cover.
    I am sorry to hear that about your brother. You are correct about the prescription add on. I know my mother had Medicare and she did pay extra for a supplimental plan to cover drugs and loopholes years ago. How much she paid for this added coverage I do not know for sure but it seems that it was in the $100 a month range. Medicare is much improved today and with the supplemental insurance that can be free it is as good as any insurance policy on the market.

  13. #88

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    Asian you make some valid points in regards to health care and health insurance. Some are perfectly capable of paying their own way without any undo hardship and many will need help through no fault of their own. Better be careful, sounds like you are promoting some kind of socialistic program. Aren’t you afraid of what black avenger may say.

    I would like to say something about the $90 trillion debt you claim these programs have added to the overall debt. Social Security and Medicare have been grossly mismanaged by both Republicans and Democrats. Almost every President and Congress member is guilty of poor money management. I am in agreement that the biggest problem is that the monies that are supposed to be set aside for these benefits have been constantly borrowed to pay for other things and rarely if ever repaid.

    For most people they contribute for more than 45 years into SS & Medicare before they become eligible to receive these benefits. Over 7% of their pay check goes to support these programs and their employers match these contributions. That amounts to an awful lot of money and if that money was properly secured and invested there would be a surplus of money for these benefits. The money is there or at least it should be there. It shouldn’t be treated as a debt since it was properly funded in the first place.

  14. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    The proposed health care insurance plan is not affordable to the government. Guess who the government is? It doesn't matter that it "seems" affordable at the patient level. If it wrecks the economy, we all pay dearly, more dearly, than with a free enterprise system. Fix the free enterprise system, don't create an even more costly system.
    Healthcare costs have already helped make the US industrial production sector uncompetitive with other countries, thus reducing GNP, tax revenue, etc. So, "if it wrecks the economy" is not even the right question; the economy is being wrecked on the current course. Whether you accept it or not the CBO ruled this week that the bill as revised will lower the deficit by$139 Billion over 10 years. But let's say they're off. Perhaps less will be saved; but anything will be better than continuing as we are. Following the CBO analysis, the argument that the plan will increase the deficit seems a bit specious.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diver View Post
    Healthcare costs have already helped make the US industrial production sector uncompetitive with other countries, thus reducing GNP, tax revenue, etc. So, "if it wrecks the economy" is not even the right question; the economy is being wrecked on the current course. Whether you accept it or not the CBO ruled this week that the bill as revised will lower the deficit by$139 Billion over 10 years. But let's say they're off. Perhaps less will be saved; but anything will be better than continuing as we are. Following the CBO analysis, the argument that the plan will increase the deficit seems a bit specious.
    Specious? read and weep (below). Of special interest to me is the $500 billion in savings from waste, fraud and abuse. I have seen numerous such proposals in my years in government--they're standard fare--but I never seem to see any such savings actually realized. When attempts are made, the cost of resources (investigators, bureaucracy, process, etc.) offset any savings, if in fact they don't add to the net cost of government.

    http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...7?OpenDocument

    It's tough for some to trust the CBO's estimates because of legislative items, such as these, in the revamped health bill:

    Medicare and other government health programs — The legislation assumes nearly $500 billion in 10-year savings from curbing waste, fraud and abuse and changing the way that health care providers such as doctors and hospitals are paid.

    It also assumes that the plan to cut physician payments by 21 percent this year remains in effect, although Congress has a long history of canceling scheduled pay cuts to doctors.

    The CBO knows that, but it can analyze legislation only as it's presented. It can't make a judgment that politicians are almost certain to change the legislation before it takes effect. Therefore its analysis shows some budget savings that are unlikely to happen.

    Excise tax — The Senate had sought to impose a tax on high-end insurance policies starting in 2013. Labor unions balked, and the final version delays the tax's implementation until 2018 and raises the income levels on what can be taxed.

    The changes dramatically reduced the amount of likely revenue — from $149 billion in the Senate bill to $32 billion now, and analysts doubt that even that may be realized.

    Long-term care insurance — Some $70 billion is counted as savings from including a new long-term care program in the legislation. Participants would pay premiums into the program for years before they entered the system, building up the fund, but the premiums would be spent in the future to pay benefits, so how's that a savings?

    In addition, premiums and benefits are supposed to adjust automatically to match each other, but what if the program's income falls short, Goldwein asks. Politicians are unlikely to cut back on promised long-term care if funds run short, history suggests; instead, they're more likely to spend more money.

    "A lot of people have interpreted the (long-term care program) as setting up the next major entitlement," Ginsburg said.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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