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Thread: open wide for healthcare!

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post
    Let's look at the computer industry. Prices have gone down while quality has gone up. What is so magical about health care that the same free market principles won't work?

    Let's look at the TV industry. Prices have gone down while quality has gone up. Now there has recently been a big increase in cost because of the new technologies, however notice how prices are once again coming down!

    Hmmmmm
    So perhaps when free markets are allowed to work in the health care industry new products and technology will at first be expensive but will come down over time!

    Competition not price control is what reduces prices!
    I am trying to understand your philosophy and examples you used in regards to health care and the free market system.

    Lets say I have a serious illness that will result in my death in a few weeks if it remains untreated. Previous treatment therapy can only prolong the inevitable for a few more weeks Now a new cure has been discovered but it is highly expensive and I canít afford it. All I have to do is wait a few years and the cost will come down to an affordable level, only problem is that I will have been in my grave long before that happens.

  2. #62

    Default Look Folks!

    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post

    I think many of you do not understand the simple basics of free markets. If there is a need for a product it will be provided. If the price is to high for the market to bear the price will come down.
    Yes, that's very simple, very basic and not a description of how this economy has operated for the last 100 years. Government has consistently intervened to stablize, support, protect and promote private industry. Without that, we'd not have prospered as we have.

    It appears you have no intention of addressing the Gallop survey of satisfaction with healthcare in Canada, Great Britian, and the United States. When facts are inconvenient, ignore them, huh?
    Last edited by Diver; March 19th, 2010 at 12:57 PM.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsscout View Post
    I am trying to understand your philosophy and examples you used in regards to health care and the free market system.

    Lets say I have a serious illness that will result in my death in a few weeks if it remains untreated. Previous treatment therapy can only prolong the inevitable for a few more weeks Now a new cure has been discovered but it is highly expensive and I canít afford it. All I have to do is wait a few years and the cost will come down to an affordable level, only problem is that I will have been in my grave long before that happens.
    I want to eat as well as the rich and famous where is my government program? I want the big house, where is my government program. Oh, wait we have a government housing plan and it wrecked the economy!

    The US is at the cutting edge of medical technology, new technology is expensive, market forces will bring down prices with time. I would think health care would be expensive because it's darn important! If you want those good products you have to pay for them or they won't be available. The money for development and the creative talent will go elsewhere.

    Choices will be made in health care, do you want to make your own decisions with the proven strengths of the free market?
    or
    A government official to decide your treatment based on cost? What if the government decides based on other factors? Race or party affiliation. The Nazis killed the mentally ill who were in the government system to save money. The founding fathers did not want government intrusion in our lives. What could be more intrusive then health care.

    All of you that are for government health care I wonder what you will think the first time you are told "NO" or "have to wait"

    If private insurance is more affordable then more people will be insured. The federal government does not allow insurance companies to operate across state lines. The effect? Health insurance is about $1,000 in Kentucky and $5,500 in NJ. The government is not allowing the free market to bring down health care!

    The supposed reason for this law is so insurance comapanies don't flock to states with low regulations. It would appear the place for the government here is to make sure all companies operate under the same regulations ie contract enforcement!

    Auto insurance companies can operate nationally and the prices seem reasonable if you are a responsible driver.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post
    I want to eat as well as the rich and famous where is my government program? I want the big house, where is my government program. Oh, wait we have a government housing plan and it wrecked the economy!

    The US is at the cutting edge of medical technology, new technology is expensive, market forces will bring down prices with time. I would think health care would be expensive because it's darn important! If you want those good products you have to pay for them or they won't be available. The money for development and the creative talent will go elsewhere.

    Choices will be made in health care, do you want to make your own decisions with the proven strengths of the free market?
    or
    A government official to decide your treatment based on cost? What if the government decides based on other factors? Race or party affiliation. The Nazis killed the mentally ill who were in the government system to save money. The founding fathers did not want government intrusion in our lives. What could be more intrusive then health care.

    All of you that are for government health care I wonder what you will think the first time you are told "NO" or "have to wait"

    If private insurance is more affordable then more people will be insured. The federal government does not allow insurance companies to operate across state lines. The effect? Health insurance is about $1,000 in Kentucky and $5,500 in NJ. The government is not allowing the free market to bring down health care!

    The supposed reason for this law is so insurance comapanies don't flock to states with low regulations. It would appear the place for the government here is to make sure all companies operate under the same regulations ie contract enforcement!

    Auto insurance companies can operate nationally and the prices seem reasonable if you are a responsible driver.
    There is no proposed gov't take over of HC. You continue with this strawman argument.
    My motto: "I hate to support casinos. But, I hate worse to libel anyone at anytime."

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  5. #65

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    It is very clear that black avenger doesnít understand the role the government has taken in making our economy work. It has stepped in and enforced laws regarding anti-monopolies, price fixing, bid rigging, etc. Some would say that some of these laws are socialistic in nature. If we take black avengerís advice and let the free market system go unchecked this country would have an economy just like many third would nations.

    black avenger doesnít address a lot of facts that other members have presented. He continues to use examples that are not applicable to the heath care debate. His answer to everything is let the free market run itís course and the government should stay out of the way even if that means the results my be disastrous. His answer to heath care is - if you canít afford it, no matter why, then die. Doesnít matter if you are a young child or a senior citizen. He doesnít want to be confused with facts and compassion has no place in America.

  6. #66
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    Yes and social security is only a small program...out of control.... taxes ....a small piece of the pie .... out of control.... Medcare ... out of control....
    Hell one six of the us economy...why lets control that, and then how about the gas companies because i cant afford 3dollar gas... Lets control it.... Okay all you rich bstrds lets control u 2... because you have to much.......
    Electric companies .... your next....prices to high......
    Houses are priced to high lets work on that .... everybody is entitled to a house dammit!!!
    And cars...mandate all electric in the cities... if would be best for all......
    Kids.....hey lets control that....kids allowed according to what you make ...yea!!!!!!
    All you fatbastards... not more cheetos....we are going to tax the hell out that ..... control ahhhh we like control!!!!!!!!
    GUN CONTROL yea baby ......... bring the citizens to their knees.....keep chipping away and some day it will be a safe and happy world.......
    Land.... them greedy land owners......lets take land ownership away...
    Control, control, control, control, control.....

    No thanks, hhmmmm wonder why some people run planes int irs building...hmmmm

    No thanks Qfit and like minded.....Not while i am alive.....
    Personallly i dont think the left has the balls to commit political suicide!!!!!! HHHmmm my cusshy job or Pelosi,,,,,,,,,,, cushy job or Pelosi......must be a hard question to answere to.....
    Machinist
    So look buddy it's nothing personal, but either your the unluckiest person in the world or your stealing from me. Either way............ I WANT NO PART OF YOU!!!!!! NEVER!!!!

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsscout View Post
    The items you have talked about have been mentioned by others many times before. It is understandable for one to think that your statements were not purely your own ideas. Where I think you are inaccurate is in your reference to death panels/health panels. I have not been able to find anywhere in the reform bill such a proposal, so if it exists please let me know where I can find it. Please don’t use someone’s opinion, show me where it is specifically described in the proposal. If in your mind you feel that eventually these panels will be a reality than current facts will not change that thinking. You call it objective thinking, I call it jumping to conclusions without any factual support. i think I read somewhere that "Hunch Players are Losers!"

    As far as Medicare cuts are concerned, the premise of the cuts are doing away with multiple like tests (in a short period of time) and reducing administrative costs. I do question the figures that are being thrown out there.
    When Pelosi doesn't have a clue what the bill says, how the hell would I know what it says. She said something like "we'll find out AFTER we pass it" (good one Nancy)!
    Most of these political threads deteriorate because of semantics and this one is no different in that respect. It can be CORRECT to say there will be no death panels because the bill is not going to call them that. Might not even call them panels but we all know there will be an oversight group that can be named almost anything they choose.
    QFit CORRECTLY says there is no proposed gov't takeover of HC. Semantics again. Involvement doesn't=control. I understand that.
    For this reason there's no end to the squabble and I may drop out but I've enjoyed the banter.

    BillyC1
    Last edited by Billy C1; March 20th, 2010 at 07:49 AM.
    Hunch Players are Losers!
    ------------------------
    Gambling Problem?--- Sure, I Don't Win Enough!!!!!!!!

  8. #68

    Default Don't Contain Health Care Costs, Run It Up!

    I don't want the government through mandate to contain health care costs!

    I want health care to be expensive!

    I want money to pour into R&D (research and development). I want those medicines and equipment that will keep me from suffering and alive! I am willing to pay a lot for these treatments so the R&D continues!

    I want the best and brightest to go into medicine because they will be paid well to keep me from suffering and dieing!

    I don't want the government to fix reinbursements or limit profit so the above does not happen!

    I know I am a radical!

  9. #69

    Default History Tells Us Capitalism is the Best!

    Quote Originally Posted by fsscout View Post
    It is very clear that black avenger doesnít understand the role the government has taken in making our economy work. It has stepped in and enforced laws regarding anti-monopolies, price fixing, bid rigging, etc. Some would say that some of these laws are socialistic in nature. If we take black avengerís advice and let the free market system go unchecked this country would have an economy just like many third would nations.

    black avenger doesnít address a lot of facts that other members have presented. He continues to use examples that are not applicable to the heath care debate. His answer to everything is let the free market run itís course and the government should stay out of the way even if that means the results my be disastrous. His answer to heath care is - if you canít afford it, no matter why, then die. Doesnít matter if you are a young child or a senior citizen. He doesnít want to be confused with facts and compassion has no place in America.
    I have stated repeatedly that the government needs to enforce contract law regarding insurance abuse of consumers, that would fix a lot of what is wrong with health care, with a dose of free market.

    If the free market (with proper regulation) is the best way to provide goods and services then I want that way to handle something as important as health care.

    My argument is health care is to important to not let the free market (best way) decide the price of goods and services.

    Health care is no different then other commodities. Many other goods and services have a health and safety aspect. The government enforces reasonable regulations without command of the whole industry. There are safety issues with cars, homes, food and electrical devices. Yet, somehow we get by without the government controlling the industries.

    The Soviet Union had a command economy and health care, guess no one paid attention to how well that went.

  10. #70

    Default Death Panel Hyperbole, Not!!!!!

    2 examples of the panacea (cure for all ills) that government health care offered in the past.

    In Nazi Germany the mentally retarded were killed in order to save costs.

    In the US in the 20th century the US Public Health Service denied treatment to Syphilis suffers as part of a government study. Look into the "Tuskegee Experiment"

    Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

    Don't tell me there are no government death panels, the government made the above decisions!

    The free market is the best way to provide goods and services
    The government is not always benevolent
    We take those history classes in school to try to learn from it!

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post
    I have stated repeatedly that the government needs to enforce contract law regarding insurance abuse of consumers, that would fix a lot of what is wrong with health care, with a dose of free market.

    If the free market (with proper regulation) is the best way to provide goods and services then I want that way to handle something as important as health care.

    My argument is health care is to important to not let the free market (best way) decide the price of goods and services.

    Health care is no different then other commodities. Many other goods and services have a health and safety aspect. The government enforces reasonable regulations without command of the whole industry. There are safety issues with cars, homes, food and electrical devices. Yet, somehow we get by without the government controlling the industries.

    The Soviet Union had a command economy and health care, guess no one paid attention to how well that went.
    What the Hell does the USSR have to do with this. You are still pushing the same absurd strawman. THERE IS NO GOV'T TAKEOVER OF ANYTHING IN THE HCR BILL.
    My motto: "I hate to support casinos. But, I hate worse to libel anyone at anytime."

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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post
    2 examples of the panacea (cure for all ills) that government health care offered in the past.

    In Nazi Germany the mentally retarded were killed in order to save costs.

    In the US in the 20th century the US Public Health Service denied treatment to Syphilis suffers as part of a government study. Look into the "Tuskegee Experiment"

    Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

    Don't tell me there are no government death panels, the government made the above decisions!

    The free market is the best way to provide goods and services
    The government is not always benevolent
    We take those history classes in school to try to learn from it!
    Good god, now were Nazi's and give syphilis to Blacks.

    THERE IS NO TAKEOVER OF ANYTHING IN THE HCR BILL.
    My motto: "I hate to support casinos. But, I hate worse to libel anyone at anytime."

    Signature (ˈsig-nə-chu̇r) noun, from Latin signatus, A place where spammers add links...
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  13. #73
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    Excuse me, but you will be compelled to obtain insurance whether you want it or not, whether indivdually, through an exchange or through your employer. If it is not government controlled healthcare( ie. mandated) then why are there fines for failing to comply. Oh yeah, let's make YOUNG people buy it to help defray the cost.
    And skip the auto insurance argument. When you operate a motor vehicle, you have the capability to cause serious bodily harm or property damage to another.
    The entitlement mentality in this country makes my head hurt.
    Gee, don't I have a "right" to get a million dollars from all my fellow citizens.
    P.S. Exchanges are a good idea, mandatory healthcare is not.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by metronome View Post
    Excuse me, but you will be compelled to obtain insurance whether you want it or not, whether indivdually, through an exchange or through your employer. If it is not government controlled healthcare( ie. mandated) then why are there fines for failing to comply. Oh yeah, let's make YOUNG people buy it to help defray the cost.
    And skip the auto insurance argument. When you operate a motor vehicle, you have the capability to cause serious bodily harm or property damage to another.
    The entitlement mentality in this country makes my head hurt.
    Gee, don't I have a "right" to get a million dollars from all my fellow citizens.
    P.S. Exchanges are a good idea, mandatory healthcare is not.
    Why would anyone non-suicidal NOT want health insurance?

    I forgot. Young people never get leukemia or heart valve problems.

    Where did someone say you have a right to a million dollars?

    This doesn't seem to be a very Christian neighborhood.
    My motto: "I hate to support casinos. But, I hate worse to libel anyone at anytime."

    Signature (ˈsig-nə-chu̇r) noun, from Latin signatus, A place where spammers add links...
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  15. #75

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    To black avenger:
    Your argument that the free market system is the best way to improve health care is based on theory and not fact. Many of the drug and medical advances were initiated overseas. Many medical advances in the US are started by medical universities, which use grant money for their research. That means the government uses tax money for research. It is rare when a US private medical company lays out huge sums of money in search of a truly new medical procedure or drug.

    You keep sprouting that by allowing the medical research industry to make huge profits is the best way to find new cures. What many of these companies have done is to take promising research from other sources and go from there. In other words they avoided the high initial cost of trial and error research and simply let others pay this cost. Too many of our companies are opportunistic and try to make everyone believe that they have huge initial outlays in discovering new advances. Many have blindly bought this untruth. Their goal is to make the bottom line as big as possible and to let others do the initial research is simply good business. I bet you cannot tell me five drugs or medical advancements started solely by a US company. I am not saying that it hasnít been done, Iím saying you are sprouting your beliefs without any proof.

    It has been proven that Merck has put together teams to investigate promising research started by small labs throughout the world. They then take this info, I hope legally and ethically, and go from there but they want you to believe that everything they do is their original idea and thus they have the right to reap all the benefits of introducing a new drug into the marketplace. Merck has not been able to prove otherwise and has made no effort to disprove these accusations.

    Let the medical research companies make huge profits so they can afford to pay the best minds their proper dues is a great idea only if it were true Are you really that naive. Do you really think that the top management is equitably sharing their profits with their employees. In 2008 the CEO of Merck made over $18 million dollars and in 2007 it was over $27 million. Must have had a down year in 2008. The pay for CEOís of other pharmaceutical companies are: Pfizer $15M, Integra Life Science $24M, Life Technologies $12M, Genzyme $12M, I could go on and on. The compensation for CEOís in the health insurance industry is similar, in fact the CEO of Aetna made over $38M.

    I know you hate facts but chew on this one. Here is what Business Week says about CEO pay. ďThe average CEO of a major corporation made 42 times the average hourly worker's pay in 1980. By 1990 that had almost doubled to 85 times. In 2000, the average CEO salary reached an unbelievable 531 times that of the average hourly worker.Ē This is not an exaggeration. Every research article I have seen on CEO pay shows similar results.

    In all industries top executives in this country need a good kick in the butt. Their greed is ruining this economy and this greed has replaced the true spirit of a free market place. I have no problem with any business owner making millions of dollars when they put everything they own on the line and worked countless hours in order to succeed. To me that is what the free market system is about. Unfortunately the vast majority of top executives never put up one single dime of their own money. The only risk they take is that they may only make $2M in a bad year versus $20M in a good year. They get rewarded for their ability to manipulate the system and this is especially true for the medical industry.

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