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Thread: open wide for healthcare!

  1. #46

    Default Mmm. Look again

    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post
    Why do Canadians come to the US for treatment? If there system is so good?
    Looks like you've been suckered in by "common knowledge." The Canadians I know are satisfied with their system and laugh at what they hear American say about how Canadian feel. But here's a summary from an article compaing satisfaction with access and quality in Canada, Great Britain and the US. You can read the full article if you want to take the time. While the survey is from 2003, I think it's safe to assume the basic groundwork of all three systems remains in place and if anything Americans' access to affordable healthcare is even worse now.

    "In Great Britain, satisfaction with access to affordable healthcare (43%) is consistent with satisfaction with quality (42%). In Canada, satisfaction with access to affordable healthcare (57%) is slightly higher than satisfaction with quality (52%). But the most dramatic variation in satisfaction with these two facets of the healthcare system occurs in the United States, where only 25% are satisfied with the availability of affordable healthcare, but 48% are satisfied with quality. Once again, this dichotomy seems to support the hypothesis that private healthcare encourages high-quality standards, but may be a barrier to access and affordability."
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/8056/heal...in-canada.aspx

  2. #47

    Default

    For VERY obvious reasons the left doesn't like the term "death panels" and doesn't elaborate much about the duties of their "health panels" or whatever they choose to call them.
    Reality says that they will be death panels called something else. Force people to die? No-----just let it happen sooner because the 500 billion cut to Medicare doesn't provide the funding required to sustain longer life. If you're 82, you're not an asset but a liability. You're not working, not paying most taxes and a drain on the funding of Medicare. Guess who's making the decisions as to how long you live then. Do you trust them?
    What does Churlish mean?

    BillyC1
    Hunch Players are Losers!
    ------------------------
    Gambling Problem?--- Sure, I Don't Win Enough!!!!!!!!

  3. #48

    Default

    First off the HCR bill is not using any other country’s health care system as a model, so referring to those systems and the faults they may have as a reason not to pursue reform in our country is not a rational argument. Secondly anybody who says they know someone from Canada, Britian, etc. and uses that person’s take on their system as a general consensus is imprudent.

    I agree with QFIT. People just keep referring to things that have nothing to do with health care and try to use those examples as rationale for not implementing health care reform. Now that brings us to another problem – the education system.

    I would like people to make note of my previous post that points out problems with our current system. It is apparent that many non-supporters do not want to address these facts and are perfectly okay with keeping their heads buried in the sand.

  4. #49

    Default Mr Qfit i am the Government

    I am the government bureaucrat. I have determined that your sim products are vital for all AP's but your cost is to high, so you are only allowed to charge $10 per product.

    What is your probably response?

    You will lobby me to get the price higher
    you will not work as hard to improve your product since you are not getting adequate return. Maybe you will even close up shop

    Notice how in both scenarios you are no longer working to provide a better product?

    Now I will help you out.
    I will require that some AP's get your product, they will have government assistance.

    What is your response?
    You are still lobbying the government for more people to be in the program and/or for you to have a higher reinbursement.

    Again, the relationship between consumer and provider is distorted because the free market is not allowed to work.

    I think the business term is called "rent seeking" which is basically when lobbying or working the system is more important then providing quality product at a price the market will support.

    Don't like my scenario? Here is a real world example
    I believe some emergency rooms have closed due to Medicare rates being to low? So government interference has caused there to be fewer emergency rooms? The government should be hesitant to interfere with free markets

  5. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy C1 View Post
    For VERY obvious reasons the left doesn't like the term "death panels" and doesn't elaborate much about the duties of their "health panels" or whatever they choose to call them.
    Reality says that they will be death panels called something else. Force people to die? No-----just let it happen sooner because the 500 billion cut to Medicare doesn't provide the funding required to sustain longer life. If you're 82, you're not an asset but a liability. You're not working, not paying most taxes and a drain on the funding of Medicare. Guess who's making the decisions as to how long you live then. Do you trust them?
    What does Churlish mean?

    BillyC1
    Could you tell me where you get this information from? Please be specific. Thanks

  6. #51

    Default How to Improve Acess and Affordibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diver View Post
    Looks like you've been suckered in by "common knowledge." The Canadians I know are satisfied with their system and laugh at what they hear American say about how Canadian feel. But here's a summary from an article compaing satisfaction with access and quality in Canada, Great Britain and the US. You can read the full article if you want to take the time. While the survey is from 2003, I think it's safe to assume the basic groundwork of all three systems remains in place and if anything Americans' access to affordable healthcare is even worse now.

    "In Great Britain, satisfaction with access to affordable healthcare (43%) is consistent with satisfaction with quality (42%). In Canada, satisfaction with access to affordable healthcare (57%) is slightly higher than satisfaction with quality (52%). But the most dramatic variation in satisfaction with these two facets of the healthcare system occurs in the United States, where only 25% are satisfied with the availability of affordable healthcare, but 48% are satisfied with quality. Once again, this dichotomy seems to support the hypothesis that private healthcare encourages high-quality standards, but may be a barrier to access and affordability."
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/8056/heal...in-canada.aspx
    How do you improve access and affordibility of a comodity?
    Free Markets!!!!!

    If free markets are the best economic system then why not use the best system for something as important as health care?

    A job of government is contract enforcement, so tighten up on the insurance companies if they are abusing consumers.

    Should the government take over the auto repair industry? There are problems there?

    All I can say is I asked someone who works in Canadain health care, a simple question. I think I have strep how long to see a doctor. They told me weeks, in the horrible USA I saw a doctor in a few hours.

    I think many of you do not understand the simple basics of free markets. If there is a need for a product it will be provided. If the price is to high for the market to bear the price will come down. Let the free market lower the cost of health care, government subsidies don't seem to work.

    The government controlling prices in health care will have the effect of rationing healthcare because investments and creative talent will leave the industry. Those miracle drugs like blood pressure medicine will no longer become available if those companies are denied profit. There will be fewer doctors if they don't get compensated for their time and efforts in obtaining a degree. If talented people shy from the medical profession then the quality of doctors will drop.

    Money and talent flows to where there is profit, take profit out of health care and quality and quantity will drop.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post
    How do you improve access and affordibility of a comodity?
    Free Markets!!!!!

    If free markets are the best economic system then why not use the best system for something as important as health care?

    A job of government is contract enforcement, so tighten up on the insurance companies if they are abusing consumers.

    Should the government take over the auto repair industry? There are problems there?

    All I can say is I asked someone who works in Canadain health care, a simple question. I think I have strep how long to see a doctor. They told me weeks, in the horrible USA I saw a doctor in a few hours.

    I think many of you do not understand the simple basics of free markets. If there is a need for a product it will be provided. If the price is to high for the market to bear the price will come down. Let the free market lower the cost of health care, government subsidies don't seem to work.

    The government controlling prices in health care will have the effect of rationing healthcare because investments and creative talent will leave the industry. Those miracle drugs like blood pressure medicine will no longer become available if those companies are denied profit. There will be fewer doctors if they don't get compensated for their time and efforts in obtaining a degree. If talented people shy from the medical profession then the quality of doctors will drop.

    Money and talent flows to where there is profit, take profit out of health care and quality and quantity will drop.
    There is no bill proposing a gov't takeover of Insurance.
    There is no bill proposing a gov't takeover of Insurance.
    There is no bill proposing a gov't takeover of Insurance.
    My motto: "I hate to support casinos. But, I hate worse to libel anyone at anytime."

    Signature (ˈsig-nə-chu̇r) noun, from Latin signatus, A place where spammers add links...
    > Here's Qfit's: BJTF Free Resources

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post
    I am the government bureaucrat. I have determined that your sim products are vital for all AP's but your cost is to high, so you are only allowed to charge $10 per product.

    What is your probably response?

    You will lobby me to get the price higher
    you will not work as hard to improve your product since you are not getting adequate return. Maybe you will even close up shop

    Notice how in both scenarios you are no longer working to provide a better product?

    Now I will help you out.
    I will require that some AP's get your product, they will have government assistance.

    What is your response?
    You are still lobbying the government for more people to be in the program and/or for you to have a higher reinbursement.

    Again, the relationship between consumer and provider is distorted because the free market is not allowed to work.

    I think the business term is called "rent seeking" which is basically when lobbying or working the system is more important then providing quality product at a price the market will support.

    Don't like my scenario? Here is a real world example
    I believe some emergency rooms have closed due to Medicare rates being to low? So government interference has caused there to be fewer emergency rooms? The government should be hesitant to interfere with free markets
    There is no proposed gov't takeover of health care.
    There is no proposal for anything related to death panels.
    My motto: "I hate to support casinos. But, I hate worse to libel anyone at anytime."

    Signature (ˈsig-nə-chu̇r) noun, from Latin signatus, A place where spammers add links...
    > Here's Qfit's: BJTF Free Resources

  9. #54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post
    How do you improve access and affordibility of a comodity?
    Free Markets!!!!!

    If free markets are the best economic system then why not use the best system for something as important as health care?

    A job of government is contract enforcement, so tighten up on the insurance companies if they are abusing consumers.

    Should the government take over the auto repair industry? There are problems there?

    All I can say is I asked someone who works in Canadain health care, a simple question. I think I have strep how long to see a doctor. They told me weeks, in the horrible USA I saw a doctor in a few hours.

    I think many of you do not understand the simple basics of free markets. If there is a need for a product it will be provided. If the price is to high for the market to bear the price will come down. Let the free market lower the cost of health care, government subsidies don't seem to work.

    The government controlling prices in health care will have the effect of rationing healthcare because investments and creative talent will leave the industry. Those miracle drugs like blood pressure medicine will no longer become available if those companies are denied profit. There will be fewer doctors if they don't get compensated for their time and efforts in obtaining a degree. If talented people shy from the medical profession then the quality of doctors will drop.

    Money and talent flows to where there is profit, take profit out of health care and quality and quantity will drop.
    You haven’t a clue in what the HCR bill says. Please take the time to investigate it and stop letting Fox News do your thinking for you. Health insurance companies currently are telling doctors what they will be paid for their services which is about 1/3 to 1/2 of their normal fee. HCR doesn’t change that. So technically health care services are not currently a true free market commodity. The insurance companies regulate health care.

    The example you used about QFIT once again has nothing to do with health care. We can all live without QFIT’s programs and research, although many will say it has helped them tremendously. Health care is entirely a different issue and many cannot live (I mean literally live) without an affordable system. Our current method is seriously flawed.

  10. #55

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fsscout View Post
    Could you tell me where you get this information from? Please be specific. Thanks
    What do you mean-----where do I get it? The statements made aren't very hard to comprehend by objective people!
    Guess you could say I was blessed with enough perception to see things that some can't and the ability to figure some things out (which some can't)
    In short, I'm not quoting anyone but myself in that post and if you disagree with the sentiment---------no problem (your privilege and right).
    Do you consider it inaccurate? If so, what is inaccurate?

    BillyC1
    Hunch Players are Losers!
    ------------------------
    Gambling Problem?--- Sure, I Don't Win Enough!!!!!!!!

  11. #56

    Default An Example of Free Markets

    Let's look at the computer industry. Prices have gone down while quality has gone up. What is so magical about health care that the same free market principles won't work?

    Let's look at the TV industry. Prices have gone down while quality has gone up. Now there has recently been a big increase in cost because of the new technologies, however notice how prices are once again coming down!

    Hmmmmm
    So perhaps when free markets are allowed to work in the health care industry new products and technology will at first be expensive but will come down over time!

    Competition not price control is what reduces prices!

  12. #57
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,111

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post
    Let's look at the computer industry. Prices have gone down while quality has gone up. What is so magical about health care that the same free market principles won't work?

    Let's look at the TV industry. Prices have gone down while quality has gone up. Now there has recently been a big increase in cost because of the new technologies, however notice how prices are once again coming down!

    Hmmmmm
    So perhaps when free markets are allowed to work in the health care industry new products and technology will at first be expensive but will come down over time!

    Competition not price control is what reduces prices!



    Perhaps you can then explain to the class why with all the competition in the free market, prices for health care are out of control?
    My Blue Cross policy went from $402 to $656 in 36 months. If it continues at this pace, I'll be priced out in about two years.
    Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out just how far one can go.


    We cannot direct the wind, we can only adjust our sails.

  13. #58

    Default Government Health Care Lies

    Someone will correct me if I have the numbers wrong. I believe Obama stated that they want to cut Medicare by 50 billion and add 30 million people? but health care won't suffer.

    I truly feel for someone who is so gullible as to take this as fact!

  14. #59

    Default

    Jezz you people need to stop fighting against health care. Universal health care is a good thing. It betters and improves society when you help out your weakest links. Many people who don't have coverage wait too long to seek help when they are ill, because they can't afford it. Insurance companies often refuse people simply to improve their bottom line. What kind of society is that, that allows our family and friends to die sometimes because of money. The US is the only first world country without universal health care, its time to get with the program. Many of the stories about wait times in other countries just aren't true. It's the insurance companies spreading fear. While no system is perfect the one that denies an individual coverage is horrible. Worried about the costs? How about the government stop fighting so many useless wars. Let's start saving instead of killing people.

  15. #60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy C1 View Post
    What do you mean-----where do I get it? The statements made aren't very hard to comprehend by objective people!
    Guess you could say I was blessed with enough perception to see things that some can't and the ability to figure some things out (which some can't)
    In short, I'm not quoting anyone but myself in that post and if you disagree with the sentiment---------no problem (your privilege and right).
    Do you consider it inaccurate? If so, what is inaccurate?

    BillyC1
    The items you have talked about have been mentioned by others many times before. It is understandable for one to think that your statements were not purely your own ideas. Where I think you are inaccurate is in your reference to death panels/health panels. I have not been able to find anywhere in the reform bill such a proposal, so if it exists please let me know where I can find it. Please don’t use someone’s opinion, show me where it is specifically described in the proposal. If in your mind you feel that eventually these panels will be a reality than current facts will not change that thinking. You call it objective thinking, I call it jumping to conclusions without any factual support. i think I read somewhere that "Hunch Players are Losers!"

    As far as Medicare cuts are concerned, the premise of the cuts are doing away with multiple like tests (in a short period of time) and reducing administrative costs. I do question the figures that are being thrown out there.

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