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Thread: Gaza is the only gulag in the Western hemisphere

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    Default Gaza is the only gulag in the Western hemisphere

    "Gaza is the only gulag in the Western hemisphere; maintained by democracies; closed-off from food, water, air" says Colonel Desmond Travers, co-author of the Goldstone report, in an exclusive MEMO interview

    Dr. Hanan Chehata
    February 4, 2010


    One year after the horrendous Israeli military assault on Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, in which over 1400 men, women and children were viciously and brutally slaughtered by invading Israeli troops, MEMO sat down with Colonel Desmond Travers, one of the four co-authors of the Goldstone Report and the only military expert on the team, and discussed his views on Israel, Hamas and the incredibly mixed reception of his groundbreaking and now iconic report.

    The UN appointed fact-finding mission, of which Colonel Travers was an integral part, set out to investigate the claims that war crimes had been committed by both Israel and Hamas during the 22 day attack on the people of Gaza between 27th December 2008 and 18th January 2009.

    After the most extensive and rigorous investigation of its kind to ever be carried out on the region, the Goldstone Report concluded that war crimes and possible crimes against humanity had been committed by both sides but by far and away the most blame was apportioned to Israel whose military tactics included, according to Colonel Travers, "hostage taking, felling of houses, destruction of the judicial police infrastructure, destruction of hospitals and the medical infrastructure, destruction of the agricultural, water and sewage infrastructure." The mission investigated 36 separate incidents of alleged Israeli offences, (although there were countless more that Colonel Travers wishes they had time to investigate) and "in all of the 36 cases we found against the perpetrators" (Israel). This included such incidents as the Israeli F-16 missile strike of a home which resulted in the deaths of 22 members of the same family, the al-Daya family; a massacre Israel claims was an "error" but of which Travers says "we didn't accept their explanation." It also included a "horrific" missile attack on al-Maqadmah mosque while people were at prayer, killing 15 civilians and wounding 40.

    When asked if there may have been grounds for Israel to target the mosque given claims by people such as Colonel Tim Collins in a recent BBC Newsnight programme that mosques had been used to store weapons, he completely rejected such "spurious" and unfounded allegations. He stands resolutely by the Goldstone Report's findings which stated clearly that there was no evidence of any kind that weapons were stored in the mosque that they investigated. Although the Report's authors made it clear that they could not generalise as they could not investigate all the mosques that were attacked by Israel, and there were many dozens attacked, they chose to investigate the al-Maqadmah Mosque because that was the most serious of all the Israeli attacks on a Muslim place of worship. However, the report concluded that: "The Mission found no evidence that this mosque was used for the storage of weapons or any military activity by Palestinian armed groups. As far as this mosque is concerned, therefore, the Mission found no basis for such an allegation."

    Colonel Travers therefore puts such allegations down to "negative stereotyping inferences" about Muslims and as he said, this sort of blasé acceptance of facts without proof "couldn't be applied elsewhere. During the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland if a British public figure or a military figure had said, 'Catholic Churches are warehouses for Semtex' there would have been an international outcry, especially in the Catholic world over such a slur." .....

    MORE- http://uruknet.info/index.php?p=m62925&hd=&size=1&l=e
    Last edited by zengrifter; February 6th, 2010 at 03:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    "Gaza is the only gulag in the Western hemisphere; maintained by democracies; closed-off from food, water, air" says Colonel Desmond Travers, co-author of the Goldstone report, in an exclusive MEMO interview
    Gaza--isn't that the place from which HAMAS launches attacks against Israel? Isn't that where HAMAS hides itself within the general population? I know if I lived there, I would leave. It's not like there's any mystery about what's going on. If they leave, I'm sure God will lead them safety.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Gaza--isn't that the place from which HAMAS launches attacks against Israel? Isn't that where HAMAS hides itself within the general population? I know if I lived there, I would leave. It's not like there's any mystery about what's going on. If they leave, I'm sure God will lead them safety.
    Hard to separate the propaganda from the truth.
    At least some of those "bottle rockets" are launched by Israel (ie, mini false-flag).
    Regardless, Judge Goldstone himself is a Jew, and a Zionist at that (good Zionist?) - why would he put his name to such a report... obviously because he has tremendous integrity. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
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    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Hard to separate the propaganda from the truth.
    At least some of those "bottle rockets" are launched by Israel (ie, mini false-flag).

    That's debatable.

    Regardless, Judge Goldstone himself is a Jew, and a Zionist at that (good Zionist?) - why would he put his name to such a report

    It takes all kinds.

    ... obviously because he has tremendous integrity.

    Not the conclusion I would draw.

    zg
    .
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    .
    Incorruptible integrity. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Incorruptible integrity. zg
    Weak-minded. az
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post

    After the most extensive and rigorous investigation of its kind to ever be carried out on the region, the Goldstone Report concluded that war crimes and possible crimes against humanity had been committed by both sides but by far and away the most blame was apportioned to Israel
    So?

    And?

    Your point is?

    Here's a quarter to call someone who cares.

    My message to the so-called Palestinians: http://www.funny-games.biz/pictures/...tchshutup.html
    Last edited by AnIrishmannot2brite; February 7th, 2010 at 09:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Incorruptible integrity. zg
    Misguided sympathy.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Incorruptible integrity. zg
    Scrupulous conscience.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Incorruptible integrity. zg
    It's not uncommon to pull for the underdog; but one's sympathy for the underdog must be in context of the larger picture.

    We must not allow the psychotic assault on Israel by HAMAS and other Palestinian militants to win the day. They are 110% wrong, and they must be dealt with harshly; otherwise, dissidents everywhere will see in their victory a green light to rise up against lawful authority and bring chaos, destruction and death to innocent populations around the world.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    It's not uncommon to pull for the underdog; but one's sympathy for the underdog must be in context of the larger picture.
    Exactly. zg
    Gaza in Plain Language

    Hard-hitting, this video dispells the many myths perpetuated
    and tells it like it really is and why.

    VIDEO(9min)- http://www.zenzoneforum.com/showthread.php?t=17361
    Last edited by zengrifter; February 7th, 2010 at 04:40 PM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  12. #12

    Default It works both ways

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    It's not uncommon to pull for the underdog; but one's sympathy for the underdog must be in context of the larger picture.

    We must not allow the psychotic assault on Israel by HAMAS and other Palestinian militants to win the day. They are 110% wrong, and they must be dealt with harshly; otherwise, dissidents everywhere will see in their victory a green light to rise up against lawful authority and bring chaos, destruction and death to innocent populations around the world.
    Surely you're aware of the roll of the Jewish paramilitary and terrorist organizations during the British Mandate and early years of the UN Partition? Certainly the Palestinian refugees are and I doubt if Hamas represents anything other than a whistful gesture of hope they may somehow hold out for what they were promised while being sold out by the Brits and UN. Meanwhile Ehud Barak actually held out the prospect of an apartheid nation last week in pressing the Palestinians to accept Israel's conditions. Take a look at the terms that were held out to the Palestinians from the time the Brits encouraged the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire going into WWI through successive betrayals up to the UN Partition. You might see why they feel so victimized and angry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diver View Post
    Surely you're aware of the roll of the Jewish paramilitary and terrorist organizations during the British Mandate and early years of the UN Partition? Certainly the Palestinian refugees are and I doubt if Hamas represents anything other than a whistful gesture of hope they may somehow hold out for what they were promised while being sold out by the Brits and UN. Meanwhile Ehud Barak actually held out the prospect of an apartheid nation last week in pressing the Palestinians to accept Israel's conditions. Take a look at the terms that were held out to the Palestinians from the time the Brits encouraged the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire going into WWI through successive betrayals up to the UN Partition. You might see why they feel so victimized and angry.
    One can easily see why they feel so victimized and angry, but fair or unfair (it depends on whom you ask), the decision was made. To illustrate a principle only, how about the government's eminent domain in this country depriving poor, old people of their lifetime homes for the sake of a mall or housing development? Are the victims therefore justified in attacking government officials? Maybe if they kill a few, they can make government think twice about using eminent domain in a way they deem to be unfair. No, it is very easy to see the reasons for anger, but that anger does not justify the horrendous death toll that followed. We live under the law. This Palestine was not a sovereign nation, but under British rule; the only sovereignty they possessed was that which was given them by the UN partition, which they summarily rejected. Surely it is better to bite the bullet under such circumstances. The fact is, in the beginning they thought with the help of their Arab allies they could overpower the fledgling Jewish state. They were hoping for a rout, a massacre. Brother, were they wrong! Now they are committed to this vendetta of hatred.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    One can easily see why they feel so victimized and angry, but fair or unfair (it depends on whom you ask), the decision was made.
    I don't believe there is any real question that leading up to the partition, the Palestinians had been assured their land rights would be respected. The partition was unworkable from the beginning---for both sides. The irony is rich in that Israeli terrorist actions against the Brits help push the latter to support the ill-conceived partition so they could leave. But whatever, there will be different takes from all sides on the whole shameful saga. What remains, is the sense of blame directed toward Britain and the West for the Palestinian refugee problem. We can engage in denial all we want, but terrorist attacks will continue against Israel, Britain and the US until there is a decent resolution to the situation. After the CIA double agent took out some of our people in Afghanistan, we heard the question again posed as to "what motivates educated, successful muslims to become terrorists?" The physician who was the double agent became increasingly radicalized while working in a Palestinian refugee camp in Jordan. I don't think telling Palestinians or their muslim supporters to just suck it up and get over it is likely to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diver View Post
    I don't believe there is any real question that leading up to the partition, the Palestinians had been assured their land rights would be respected. The partition was unworkable from the beginning---for both sides. The irony is rich in that Israeli terrorist actions against the Brits help push the latter to support the ill-conceived partition so they could leave. But whatever, there will be different takes from all sides on the whole shameful saga. What remains, is the sense of blame directed toward Britain and the West for the Palestinian refugee problem. We can engage in denial all we want, but terrorist attacks will continue against Israel, Britain and the US until there is a decent resolution to the situation. After the CIA double agent took out some of our people in Afghanistan, we heard the question again posed as to "what motivates educated, successful muslims to become terrorists?" The physician who was the double agent became increasingly radicalized while working in a Palestinian refugee camp in Jordan. I don't think telling Palestinians or their muslim supporters to just suck it up and get over it is likely to work.
    I believe Israel was willing to try to make the partition work. Palestine rejected it out of hand. If both sides wanted it to work, I believe it could have worked, no matter how difficult that might have been. The idea of unworkable has to do with unwillingness. Life is not fair.

    There were about the same number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

    Decent resolution? It will probably end with a horrific loss of life on both sides. I personally do not believe Israel will be destroyed, but that is a possibility.

    Attacks may continue, but they will be met with severe reprisals until they stop. I do believe they will stop, and I do not believe that either Britain or the U.S. will cease to exist because of them.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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