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Thread: The Root of Socialism, Christianity's Failure?

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    Default The Root of Socialism, Christianity's Failure?

    Discussion: In a Christian country, does not socialism result from the failure of Christianity? If Christians really did love one another, sharing their earthly goods, giving to each according to their need as in the early days of the church, there would be no need for the state to redistribute wealth--people would have already done so voluntarily. So maybe we Christians should all stop blaming Obama, and take a good, hard look at ourselves. And maybe that goes for non-Christians as well. Don't they subscribe in concept to the same "do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Discussion: In a Christian country, does not socialism result from the failure of Christianity? If Christians really did love one another, sharing their earthly goods, giving to each according to their need as in the early days of the church, there would be no need for the state to redistribute wealth--people would have already done so voluntarily. So maybe we Christians should all stop blaming Obama, and take a good, hard look at ourselves. And maybe that goes for non-Christians as well. Don't they subscribe in concept to the same "do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"
    I'd say its more christianty's fault. Especially your Catholic church has a long history of being sympathetic to fascist regimes. Fascism being the precursor and model of national socialism.

    Mussolini had barely seized power in Italy before the Vatican made an official treaty with him known as the Lateran Pact of 1929. Under the terms of this deal, Catholocism became the only recognized religion in Italy with monopoly powers over matters such as birth, marriage,death, and education, and in return urged its followers to vote for Mussolini's party. Even Pope PiusXI described Il Duce as a man sent by providence. Even across southern Europe the church was a reliable ally in the instatement of fascist regimes in Spain, Portugal, and Croatia. General Franco in Spain was allowed to call his invasion of the country, and the destruction of its elected republic, by the horrific title La Crujada, or "The Crusade".

    I can go on forever with more historical evidence as to how pro socialist or fascist your organized religion can be, but I'm sure you cannot see the relevance so I will not waste my time typing. I find it laughable though that a religion based on the dictatorship of a supposed infallable being, whose law is not of democracy or of elected process, who's punishment for not bending to the belief of its law is not only punishment, but infinite punishment, would have the audacity to believe their way is that of moving away from socialism. The very definition of which a christian believes is that of all are equal in the eyes of the lord if accepted by his grace, no higher favors given based on good works, no extra love given through hard work, just one love for all. Unless of course you don't believe then its eternal damnation. Hitler couldn't have thought it up better himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Discussion: In a Christian country, does not socialism result from the failure of Christianity? If Christians really did love one another, sharing their earthly goods, giving to each according to their need as in the early days of the church, there would be no need for the state to redistribute wealth--people would have already done so voluntarily. So maybe we Christians should all stop blaming Obama, and take a good, hard look at ourselves. And maybe that goes for non-Christians as well. Don't they subscribe in concept to the same "do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"
    SOCIALISM... Definition
    –noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
    2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
    3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

    You are right. Christianity is an abject failure. Christians might try to pretend that they love each other and everyone else, as directed by their Jesus or God, but the reality is what we have today: Christianity split into a vast number of opposing, elite groups, sects, clubs, movements, churches, and denominations. Almost all disagree on many things: scriptural interpretations, beliefs, whether Jesus was God or not, whether Mary was a virgin; blah blah. Most of these groups or churches believe they are the only ones that have got it right... absolutely RIGHT. Theirs is the rightest, whereas alas, the ignorant misguided others, are all wrong.

    These groups say OUR version of christianity is the only one that has God's pure Word. He favored our church over all others. The idea that God favored our religion/race/country/region over all others is pure ancient superstition that remains a firm belief in millions world-wide who are content with childhood brainwashing when these beliefs were deeply imprinted and embedded in young minds.

    I recall a time long ago when a homeless person was a fairly rare sight. Nowadays, homeless people, even beggars are part of the city landscape. I see some christian charity groups do their best in this area, but get overwhelmed. Who can blame a christian for not wanting to take a few of the unfortunate ones home for food, rest and recuperation? Hell, they may carry guns, drugs, have diseases, be homicidal maniacs, god only knows the perils that might arise. Better leave em all on the street and in soup lines... that's a lot safer. So christian socialism definitely has its limits, in this day and age.

    As I see it, the basic underlying beliefs are seriously flawed, which means serious problems in trying to organize the whole movement coherently. As I already mentioned, the movement is shattered into many parts, each rowing their own 'we are rightest' boat, which does not do a lot for the credibility of the whole.

    The flawed underlying beliefs are these two: 1 'God gave his only begotten son...' Hmmmm. No other kids, did God have huh... And no daughter? Right.
    2. 'Jesus died for our sins.' Where did this idea originate? Who thought that one up? If I said: "Julius Caesar died for your sins" that would be laughable, wouldn't it... The idea that someone 2000 years ago 'died for the sins of humanity' is nonsensical, if the concept is examined deeply by someone who has some vestige of uncommon sense left intact. Asimov was alluding to this in his quote:
    "Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
    Isaac Asimov.
    Last edited by Katweezel; December 27th, 2009 at 05:53 PM. Reason: Received threat from pope Benedict
    Dogma schmogma

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Discussion: In a Christian country, does not socialism result from the failure of Christianity? If Christians really did love one another, sharing their earthly goods, giving to each according to their need as in the early days of the church, there would be no need for the state to redistribute wealth--people would have already done so voluntarily. So maybe we Christians should all stop blaming Obama, and take a good, hard look at ourselves. And maybe that goes for non-Christians as well. Don't they subscribe in concept to the same "do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"
    Socialism represents the terminal stage of Christianity: the point at which the fundamental Christian instincts have become dissociated from traditional Christian metaphysical belief and rerouted into the more mundane realms of "humanism", "human rights", "philanthropy", "tolerance", etc. The significant observation, however, is that these fundamental Christian instincts are still very much intact. In fact, the atheist humanitarian does not even belabor this point. Rather, he merely contends that his own metaphysics - or lack thereof - enables a purer, more correct, and more honest doctrine of human love.

    What we see, therefore, is that the basic psychological appeals which Christianity possessed - liberation from suffering, emancipation from oppression, the triumph of the weak over the strong - have now simply been co-opted by a more timely and relevant school of thought with a more universal appeal, free from the superstition and wild claims which were a necessary part of any proper messianic cult in first century Judea, but which are now more likely to be off-putting to the effete cosmopolitan of today whose basic instincts are still very much Christian, but who also carries a whole host of other, modern sensibilities in tow.

    It is probably also worth pointing out that in this picture, it is he who believes himself to be most free from the whole wretched death spiral of Christianity - the aforementioned atheist humanitarian - who is in fact most deluded. The nascent socialism which he professes, far from being the youthful doctrine of the future he feels it to be, is in reality only the detritus and rotted entrails of the Christian faith, refined so as to make it more palatable to the terminally ill. He is in this picture a vulture, a carrion feeder, and not long after his meal comes to an end - so must he.
    Last edited by Pelerus; December 27th, 2009 at 09:16 PM.

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    Actually, Kat, most Christians do agree on essentials that would change the world if implemented. Love your neighbor. Love your enemy. Each according to his need. I think I will rephrase my original statement. It is not Christianity that has failed, it is Christians who have failed Christianity.

    Christians have failed to love their neighbor, and so we have millions in our own country and around the world who are suffering from hunger, lack of shelter, and inadequate resources to live a self-fulfilling life.

    Christians have failed to love their enemies. They demonize their enemies. They wish to exact revenge, not just protect themselves and their families. They act more like they believe that might is right.

    And Christians have failed to voluntarily redistribute their wealth so that no one, other than the slothful, are without the necessities of life. The Christian adage that if I have two coats, one of them belongs to my brother who has none, is meaningless in most of our society. Christians, like non-Christians, want more, and more, and more. Their desire for things is insatiable. Their treasure is in this world, not in the next as cautioned by Christ.

    The penalty for a Christian society that has failed to live up to its commonly held values, is statism to one degree or another. If Christians don't do what is right, have the courage of their convictions, the ills of society go untreated. If Christians fail in essence to be Christians, society becomes sick and invalid. Who will save society? If the people won't, it falls to the state.

    It turns out that Christianity was never meant to be system of living for society at large. The centuries past prove this. It doesn't catch on. It says so itself--many are called but few are chosen. "Nominal" Christianity, unlike true Christianity, is large, embraces whole societies, but it is shallow, not real--live a good life--live and let live--to each his own--do unto others as you would have them do unto you--but with enough latitude to also allow for--it's a dog eat dog world--greed is good--there has to be winners and losers--life isn't fair--you can't be responsible for what happens to the competition--do unto others before they do unto you--etc., etc.

    Small pockets of true Christianity do flourish--monasteries and religious orders are examples. But nothing in terms of entire societies. Narrow the way and few there are that find it.

    Statism is the penalty for a society that cannot embrace Christianity--and no society can. It just doesn't happen.

    It is the form of statism that we fight over.

    Capitalism/free enterprise under a democratic state gives the most freedom possible to the people, but itself must be brought under control by the state. Rules must be put into place to protect children, workers, competition, human rights, etc., etc. It fails when government officials yield to corporate persuasion and fail to adequately protect the people by properly regulating the corporations.

    Socialism yields greater power to the state to control outcomes in order to create a state in which everyone has an equal share in the pie. It fails when the power put into the hands of government officials, corrupts those officials and results in them receiving a disproportionate piece of the pie themselves. It also creates disincentives to work and innovate. It enslaves the citizenry to one degree or another by making them dependent on the state for survival.

    There are many other forms of statism. Dictatorship, fascism, monarchy, theocracy, oligarchy, etc. My choice is whatever form of statism gives the most freedom. That form, I believe, is representative democracy coupled with a free enterprise system. It has nothing to do with Christianity except in a remote sense. It does allow for the greatest freedom for the individual, something I have come to cherish.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelerus View Post
    Socialism represents the terminal stage of Christianity: the point at which the fundamental Christian instincts have become dissociated from traditional Christian metaphysical belief and rerouted into the more mundane realms of "humanism", "human rights", "philanthropy", "tolerance", etc. The significant observation, however, is that these fundamental Christian instincts are still very much intact. In fact, the atheist humanitarian does not even belabor this point. Rather, he merely contends that his own metaphysics - or lack thereof - enables a purer, more correct, and more honest doctrine of human love.

    What we see, therefore, is that the basic psychological appeals which Christianity possessed - liberation from suffering, emancipation from oppression, the triumph of the weak over the strong - have now simply been co-opted by a more timely and relevant school of thought with a more universal appeal, free from the superstition and wild claims which were a necessary part of any proper messianic cult in first century Judea, but which are now more likely to be off-putting to the effete cosmopolitan of today whose basic instincts are still very much Christian, but who also carries a whole host of other, modern sensibilities in tow.

    It is probably also worth pointing out that in this picture, it is he who believes himself to be most free from the whole wretched death spiral of Christianity - the aforementioned atheist humanitarian - who is in fact most deluded. The nascent socialism which he professes, far from being the youthful doctrine of the future he feels it to be, is in reality only the detritus and rotted entrails of the Christian faith, refined so as to make it more palatable to the terminally ill. He is in this picture a vulture, a carrion feeder, and not long after his meal comes to an end - so must he.
    I believe that christianity reached the onset of its terminal stages around the time of the Reformation and Inquisition. From there, the 'Cult of Death' has suffered a slow decline that seems to be gathering momentum IMO.

    With the horrors of the Inquisition, papal indulgences and the like, the Roman church in the 15th century had become decadent and corrupt and continually failed to provide a spiritual lead, (from the book: The story of the Reformation.)

    The so-called appeals of christianity: liberation from suffering, emancipation from oppression, the triumph of the weak over the strong, were tragically inverted during the Inquisition, and millions suffered and died from the religion they trusted. This probably represents the starting time of the terminal decline; the time when religious awareness slowly realized all was not well with organized religion, and that something held dear as being deep and meaningful was somehow, terribly flawed.

    The IT era came quickly and the internet has played a prime role in new information reaching so many people world-wide. More people these days are more educated and are less likely to swallow old superstitious tales from the past. The rise and popularity of modern spiritual teachers - such as Eckhart Tolle demonstrate people have an eternal desire for spiritual knowledge. Christianity went as far as it could go, with its limited understanding of spiritual matters. Many who have open, inquiring minds are no longer satisfied with the old ways, the old stories. More, - and satisfying - spiritual answers are now available outside of organized religion.
    Dogma schmogma

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    Christianity did not go as far as it could go--Christians simply failed to follow it to its logical conclusion, sainthood. Saints do not murder, oppress, steal, burn at the stake (unless its they themselves who are being burned), etc. Please stop pinning the blame on Christianity. It's not Christianity, it them dang Christians, or should I say, them dang, half-baked, nominal, ignorant, so-called Christians!
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Christianity did not go as far as it could go--Christians simply failed to follow it to its logical conclusion, sainthood. Saints do not murder, oppress, steal, burn at the stake (unless its they themselves who are being burned), etc. Please stop pinning the blame on Christianity. It's not Christianity, it them dang Christians, or should I say, them dang, half-baked, nominal, ignorant, so-called Christians!
    Sainthood?!! Are you friggin serious? Here's an inside look at your newest saint Mother Teresa. If you still see the need to strive for such a level of what she did after seeing the truth of it, you need to admit to religious brainwashing and start seeking truth.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3tUuA7WBRE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    The IT era came quickly and the internet has played a prime role in new information reaching so many people world-wide. More people these days are more educated and are less likely to swallow old superstitious tales from the past. The rise and popularity of modern spiritual teachers - such as Eckhart Tolle demonstrate people have an eternal desire for spiritual knowledge. Christianity went as far as it could go, with its limited understanding of spiritual matters. Many who have open, inquiring minds are no longer satisfied with the old ways, the old stories. More, - and satisfying - spiritual answers are now available outside of organized religion.
    Little known fact: The IT Era was catalyzed by psychedelics, LSD and marijuana, principally.
    This is the time of the New Gnosis, or NG. zg

    Ps - back on topic - does the NG require or otherwise facilitate a socialistic paradigm?
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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Discussion: In a Christian country, does not socialism result from the failure of Christianity? If Christians really did love one another, sharing their earthly goods, giving to each according to their need as in the early days of the church, there would be no need for the state to redistribute wealth--people would have already done so voluntarily. So maybe we Christians should all stop blaming Obama, and take a good, hard look at ourselves. And maybe that goes for non-Christians as well. Don't they subscribe in concept to the same "do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"
    The older I get the more I donate to humane societies and less to "people" charities. My reasoning is that I'm forced to pay taxes of which a certain percentage helps disadvantaged people.
    I've seen several abuses by people that should be working and have no incentive to because they are "taken care of"
    I haven't had a dog or cat (or any other animal) extort money from me in such a manner.

    Billy C1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy C1 View Post
    The older I get the more I donate to humane societies and less to "people" charities. My reasoning is that I'm forced to pay taxes of which a certain percentage helps disadvantaged people.
    I've seen several abuses by people that should be working and have no incentive to because they are "taken care of"
    I haven't had a dog or cat (or any other animal) extort money from me in such a manner.

    Billy C1
    Oh, but when they look into your eyes they can have anything they want! Admit it! They have you wrapped around their little paws. Extortion is unnecessary!
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Little known fact: The IT Era was catalyzed by psychedelics, LSD and marijuana, principally.
    This is the time of the New Gnosis, or NG. zg

    Ps - back on topic - does the NG require or otherwise facilitate a socialistic paradigm?
    Gnosticism has nothing to do with authentic Christianity.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Gnosticism has nothing to do with authentic Christianity.
    Yes, nothing to do with real spirituality. zg

    From Wiki: Gnosis (γνῶσις) in a religious context, to be 'Gnostic' should be understood as being reliant not on knowledge in a general sense, but as being specially receptive to mystical or esoteric experiences of direct participation with the divine. Indeed, in most Gnostic systems the sufficient cause of salvation is this 'knowledge of' ('acquaintance with') the divine. This is commonly identified with a process of inward 'knowing' or self-exploration, comparable to that encouraged by Plotinus (ca. 205–270 AD). However, as may be seen, the term 'gnostic' also had precedent usage in several ancient philosophical traditions, which must also be weighed in considering the very subtle implications of its appellation to a set of ancient religious groups.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Gnosticism has nothing to do with authentic Christianity.
    You only think that because you're not "in the gnow."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelerus View Post
    You only think that because you're not "in the gnow."
    True spirituality is not a thinking exercise. You two remind me of that political party of the mid-1800s gnown as the "Gnow Gnothings."

    Lest ye forget, even the devil is spiritual.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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