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Thread: People of Israel vs State of Israel - The Difference?

  1. #1

    Default People of Israel vs State of Israel - The Difference?

    I am trying to find some Biblical authority for Thunder, as to where and why the Jewish
    Scripture forbade the establishment of a "Jewish Nation" prior to the Messahia. zg
    WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE

    Source: NETUREI KARTA

    First some introductions:

    1) What is "The People of Israel" ?
    • The People of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
    • They have their own particular, essential nature.
    • The Torah is the source of their essential nature.
    • Without Torah and Faith there is no People of Israel.
    • Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the People of Israel.
    • The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine Service.
    • Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.
    2) What is Zionism?
    • Zionism is a relatively new thing.
    • It has only existed for a century.
    • Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the People of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character - a materialistic worldly nation.
    • Their misfortune is lack of what other nations possess, i.e. a state and army.
    • Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
    • This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist thought, and among the leaders of the Zionist State, that through changing the nature and character of the People of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation" -- a state and an army.

    The People of Israel oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons:

    FIRST -- The so-called "State of Israel" is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the People of Israel, as is explained above. The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, and likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him, then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substitutes another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation," and the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize a land and army. However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. This is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.

    SECOND -- Because of all of this and other reasons the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence will redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. If we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.

    MORE- http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    I am trying to find some Biblical authority for Thunder, as to where and why the Jewish
    Scripture forbade the establishment of a "Jewish Nation" prior to the Messahia. zg
    Isaiah 11 talks of the coming of the Messiah, the establishment of peace, and the gathering of Jews from the four corners of the earth. Aslan
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Isaiah 11 talks of the coming of the Messiah, the establishment of peace, and the gathering of Jews from the four corners of the earth. Aslan
    In that order, I presume. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    In that order, I presume. zg
    Yes, precisely. But open to interpretation, naturally. Aslan
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    I am trying to find some Biblical authority for Thunder, as to where and why the Jewish
    Scripture forbade the establishment of a "Jewish Nation" prior to the Messahia. zg
    ...The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, ...
    Is this a Freudian slip? Two thousand years ago was the birth of Christ, and is truly the time when the glory of the creator was upon us. lol The time of Moses was some 3,200 years ago, and that seems a more likely time frame for putting the "permission" to have a state, at least, in Jewish thought.

    Isaiah 11:1-12

    [Messiah-->]1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
    3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
    4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
    5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
    [Peace-->] 6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
    7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
    8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
    9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
    10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
    [Return to the promised land (Israel)-->]11And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
    12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
    Last edited by aslan; October 22nd, 2009 at 09:51 PM.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  6. #6
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    Bible classes for Jews will begin on October 27.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Is this a Freudian slip? Two thousand years ago was the birth of Christ, and is truly the time when the glory of the creator was upon us. lol The time of Moses was some 3,200 years ago, and that seems a more likely time frame for putting the "permission" to have a state, at least, in Jewish thought.
    Maybe the Jews against Zionism are closet Messianics. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Maybe the Jews against Zionism are closet Messianics. zg
    Perish the thought!
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    I am trying to find some Biblical authority for Thunder, as to where and why the Jewish
    Scripture forbade the establishment of a "Jewish Nation" prior to the Messahia. zg
    WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE

    Source: NETUREI KARTA

    First some introductions:

    1) What is "The People of Israel" ?
    • The People of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
    • They have their own particular, essential nature.
    • The Torah is the source of their essential nature.
    • Without Torah and Faith there is no People of Israel.
    • Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the People of Israel.
    • The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine Service.
    • Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.
    2) What is Zionism?
    • Zionism is a relatively new thing.
    • It has only existed for a century.
    • Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the People of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character - a materialistic worldly nation.
    • Their misfortune is lack of what other nations possess, i.e. a state and army.
    • Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
    • This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist thought, and among the leaders of the Zionist State, that through changing the nature and character of the People of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation" -- a state and an army.

    The People of Israel oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons:

    FIRST -- The so-called "State of Israel" is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the People of Israel, as is explained above. The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, and likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him, then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substitutes another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation," and the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize a land and army. However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. This is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.

    SECOND -- Because of all of this and other reasons the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence will redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. If we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.

    MORE- http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm
    Again ZG, there is nothing from the Torah that says Jews can't have a state of Israel before the messiah. You quote the book Vayoel Moshe, but that is written by the leader of the Satmar Hasidic movement who by the way is a TOTAL NUT JOB. You seriously are going to quote me stuff from a guy who claims that the Holocaust was a result of the Zionists?!!!!! I expect better.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Again ZG, there is nothing from the Torah that says Jews can't have a state of Israel before the messiah. You quote the book Vayoel Moshe, but that is written by the leader of the Satmar Hasidic movement who by the way is a TOTAL NUT JOB. You seriously are going to quote me stuff from a guy who claims that the Holocaust was a result of the Zionists?!!!!! I expect better.
    YOU must KNOW there IS something there, I am just not quickly accessing it. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  11. #11

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    If there was any validity, I wouldn't be having this argument.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    If there was any validity, I wouldn't be having this argument.
    EXCERPT FROM -
    ISRAELI INDEPENDENCE DAY
    A Day of Mourning for Torah Faithful Jews


    The founding of the Zionist State is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah, which forbids the establishment of a Jewish State and commands Jews to remain in exile until released from that exile by G-d Himself without any human intervention. At which time all Nations of the world will live together in peace.

    Two thousand years ago, at the time of the destruction of the holy Temple, the Jewish people were commanded by the Creator (kesubos 111a)
    • Not to go up en masse to the land of Israel
    • Not to rebel against the nations
    • Not to in any way attempt to end the exile
    • Torah faithful Jews are to behave in a civil, honest and grateful manner towards their host nations throughout the world.

    The Zionist intervention against G-d’s will by establishing the ‘State of Israel’, represents a direct rebellion against G-d and the Torah, a rebellion which has generated untold pain and suffering, to Jew and non-Jew alike.

    On the anniversary of the founding of this heretical Zionist State, Torah true Jews mourn the attempt to transform Judaism from a religion into a secular entity and the attempt to uproot the Torah teachings. We mourn the sacrilege it has produced: desecration of the Sabbath, loss of modesty, and a litany of violations against many laws of our faith and Jewish teachings, amongst them the command of compassion for our fellow beings.


    -----------------
    -----------------

    Excerpt From Wikipedia - Rabbi Joel (Yoel) Teitelbaum

    Three Oaths

    The core citations from classical Judaic sources cited by Teitelbaum in his arguments against modern Zionism are based on a passage in the Talmud, Rabbi Yosi b'Rebbi Hanina explains (Kesubos 111a) that the Lord imposed "Three Oaths" on the nation of Israel: a) Israel should not return to the Land together, by force; b) Israel should not rebel against the other nations; and c) The nations should not subjugate Israel too harshly.

    According to Teitelbaum, the second oath is relevant concerning the subsequent wars fought between Israel and Arab nations. He views the Zionist State of Israel as a form of "impatience" and in keeping with the Talmud's warnings that being impatient for God's love leads to "grave danger". Satmar Hasidism explains that the constant wars in Israel are a fulfilment of ignoring this oath.

    R. Teitelbaum saw his opposition to Zionism as a way of protecting Jewish lives and preventing bloodshed. Although some Haredi rabbis may agree with this idea, the general view of Agudath Israel and many other orthodox rabbis is that for all practical purposes, through participating in the Israeli government, efforts can be made to promote religious Judaism in Israel. Rabbi Teitelbaum, however, felt that any participation in the Israeli government, even voting in elections, was a grave sin, because it contributes to the spiritual and physical destruction of innocent people. He was openly opposed to the views of Agudath Israel, and until the present time, the official Satmar movement refuses to become a member of the Agudath Israel organization or party. The Satmar view is that only the Jewish Messiah can bring about a new Jewish government in the Holy Land, and even if a government declaring itself religious would be formed before the Messiah, it would be illegitimate due to its improper arrogation of power.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  13. #13

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    If you read on in Ketubim 111 it also mentions debates saying that it is a biblical commandment to live in Israel and that a person's connection to G_d is increased in the land of Israel due to the holiness of the land, as supported by Maimonidies in his commentary regarding it saying that a person should live in the land of Israel. Nachmanodies also says that the Jewish people HAVE to establish the Jewish state to bring about the redemption.

    It is also valid to say the three oaths are not binding as they are agadic, furthermore the gentiles did not uphold the oath not to oppress Jewish people more than they can tolerate.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    If you read on in Ketubim 111 it also mentions debates saying that it is a biblical commandment to live in Israel and that a person's connection to G_d is increased in the land of Israel due to the holiness of the land, as supported by Maimonidies in his commentary regarding it saying that a person should live in the land of Israel. Nachmanodies also says that the Jewish people HAVE to establish the Jewish state to bring about the redemption.

    It is also valid to say the three oaths are not binding as they are agadic, furthermore the gentiles did not uphold the oath not to oppress Jewish people more than they can tolerate.
    What are your criticisms, if any, of Israel? Any? zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    What are your criticisms, if any, of Israel? Any? zg
    I guess he hasn't any?

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