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Thread: The ZenZone Migration discussion thread

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by newb99 View Post
    With the greatest of respect Kat, this is precisely the mindset that allows, and in some cases encourages, individuals to cross the line between expressing a valid view, and publishing stuff that is untrue, unvalidated, offensive and transgresses what might be considered to be decent.
    Give us an example of that sort of thing at Zzone. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  2. #32
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    Default Freedom of speech

    Quote Originally Posted by newb99 View Post
    With the greatest of respect Kat, this is precisely the mindset that allows, and in some cases encourages, individuals to cross the line between expressing a valid view, and publishing stuff that is untrue, unvalidated, offensive and transgresses what might be considered to be decent. If you take the reasoning to the extreme conclusion, why not have a section of the Forum showing extreme pornographic images? You could apply the same test -people who don't like it should stay away, and if some disagree with it what's the big deal?

    The end result of abusing a facility of free speech is that it is eventually withdrawn by those who have allowed it in the first place. As I've inferred before, like it or not free speech isn't unconditional and goes hand in hand with a degree of self-regulation and accountability. Failure to apply these puts it at risk. The "if you don't like it, don't read/watch it" standpoint is naive at the very least, and dangerous at a more profound level as it can always be used to justify stifling free speech on grounds of "offends public decency and is not in the public interest".

    It could be argued that the anonymity the internet allows hasn't enhanced free speech but rather undermined it in that the amount of inaccurate, unsubstantiated and offensive material that has been published by anonymous individuals has brought the whole concept of free speech and freedom to publish into disrepute.

    A quick test - that inaccurate quote attributed to Begin you published a few weeks back. Would you have published something like it under your own name in a reputable journal or periodical in Australia in the knowledge that you might be sued by the individual concerned in a court of law? I doubt it.
    I doubt it too...
    With the greatest of respect Newb, posters on this site are expected to exercise reasonable self-regulation and of course, nobody is going to get away with posting porn here. In fact, nobody gets away with posting totally rude, offensive, racist, crude, or direct character assassination here, at least not for very long. It's easy to get banned here. Me and InPlay have both been there, done that.

    Here on this site, probably 99% of posters do the best they can to write their best post possible, in the fine tradition of self-excellence and self-regulation here at BJInfo. But we are all human and we all make mistakes. When this happens sometimes here, apologies are accepted and all move on. (Begin case.) So when I say 'what's the big deal if you disagree?', I refer to the context of this small community here. Not the larger world, nor Supreme Court debates on Freedom of Speech.

    Making sure quotes are substantiated is normally fairly straightforward; but as we all know, anyone can post whatever on the Internet. I learned that occasionally, it can be difficult; particularly with controversial issues (such as Holocaust) where opposing groups may have spent years and much effort at organized disinformation. These can be a minefield for the unwary and unaware.
    Dogma schmogma

  3. #33
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    Well . . . however you see it, nobody will be posting anything in the ZZ for much longer.

  4. #34
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    I'm for keeping the Zen Zone here in BJINFO.

    First, I don't want to have two places I must log into; the Zen Zone in another location (URL) would be an inconvenience.

    Second, I like the fact that the I know the posters are by and large at least of an intelligence level to be advantage players.

    Third, objectionable material or personal attacks is not an issue with me, even if a post sometimes gets under my skin. I thought that's what the "ignore" list was for. As a great man once said, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the Zen Zone," or something to that effect. (laugh)

    I began on BJINFO interested only in counting. Now, I go to BJ threads only when I have a particular issue in mind. For example, when I visit Vegas I always check out the Vegas threads first. Also, if I become interested in a special area, such as, hole carding, I check out those threads. But by and large, I now spend most of my time in the Zen Zone and Anything Else.

    If the Zen Zone migrated elsewhere, what would prevent members from using "Anything Else" to fill the vacuum? I really don't want to go anywhere else in terms of logging into a new URL. Already it is a nuisance to daily log into Email, Facebook and BJINFO--plus other sites on a less than daily basis. Another site to log into daily would be a real game breaker. As much as I like ZG, I will probably decline.

    Which brings me to another point--no better moderator could be imagined than ZG. While I have "lost it" on occasion in discussions with some members, ZG's sincerity and integrity as an individual, and also his sense of humor, comes out in large letters, even though we seldom agree. As bizarre as I think some of his views are, IMHO, he is a class act.

    In summary, IMO it would be a mistake to drop the Zen Zone from BJINFO and a disappointment to me personally.

    That being said, I would like to hear Ken's rationale for migrating Zen Zone elsewhere. Maybe he can change my mind.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  5. #35
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    I think there may be pressure from the Illuminati.
    There Is No Second Place Winner ...even if your not brusque and merely informative.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    If the Zen Zone migrated elsewhere, what would prevent members from using "Anything Else" to fill the vacuum?
    I know! I am thinking that we might just tell (ask) Ken to re-merge the
    Anything and ZZ and call it Anything... and go right on with the show.

    Hopefully we will hear something from the big kahuna before too long. zg

    Ps - I can live with ZZ losing its ID and being combined with Anything...
    maybe we can call it the Anything ZONE.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  7. #37

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    +1 for Aslan's post. That expresses all of my thoughts on the matter.

  8. #38

    Default Thoughts

    There is little value in the Zen Zone. Its main purpose is to create backlash against Israel and to perpetuate conspiracy theories. This is evidenced by the fact that I count 67 threads minimum by ZG bashing Israel, Zionism or Jews. I count 0 threads by him bashing any Arab lands, Palestinians or Islam. As a result it has been used by hate groups as a forum. Even more telling is the # of anti-Israel or anti-semitic pictures that have been posted by the likes of ZG or Katzweezel. Many of the articles posted here have originated from known hate sites. While I have no problem with open debate, I do have a problem when there is clear bias against a group of people. (People who support Israel) and it's used to perpetuate an agenda or reinforce a negative stereotype. Whether you realize it or not ZG, by bashing Israel, you ultimately end up causing hatred against Jews since the two will forever be linked as long as Jews have Israel as a homeland.

    I could be wrong, but I believe this site was intended to help people with improving their chances in games at the casino. There are many other sites that cater to conspiracy theories or Israel bashing. By continuing to allow the Zen Zone in its present format to exist takes away credibility and professionalism from the site. In addition, one could argue that it may scare advertisers away from the site as they do not want to be associated with such controversial material. In essence, while you may claim you are helping Ken's site, I believe in the end, you are ultimately hurting it.

    Therefore, I believe the most appropriate thing to do is for ZG to set up his own site where he is free to express his views in whatever manner he chooses.
    Last edited by Thunder; October 21st, 2009 at 06:08 PM.

  9. #39
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    I concur with Thunder.

    In any case, the name of this site is BJinfo.com
    not conspiratorial hatemongers.org

    There is no place for such rubbish here.

    What purpose does it serve ?

    I have long wondered why a person of
    Ken Smith's intellectual caliber is not
    embarrassed by hosting such a septic mess.

    "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of
    certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure about anything."

    … Richard Feynman, 1965 Nobel Laureate

  10. #40
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    WOW. It's enlightening to see how multiple people can view the same information and perceive the same so differently.

    I am very much pro Israel. I'll defend her 'till the end. While I definitely don't agree with much of what I read here, I never thought of it as "hate speech". The ZZ always seemed like an equal opportunity bash zone to me. Maybe I'm just insensitive to these kind of things.
    There Is No Second Place Winner ...even if your not brusque and merely informative.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    There is little value in the Zen Zone. Its main purpose is to create backlash against Israel and to perpetuate conspiracy theories. This is evidenced by the fact that I count 67 threads minimum by ZG bashing Israel, Zionism or Jews.
    "Jew bashing," huh?
    I count 0 threads by him bashing any Arab lands, Palestinians or Islam. As a result it has been used by hate groups as a forum. Even more telling is the # of anti-Israel or anti-semitic pictures that have been posted by the likes of ZG or Katzweezel.
    Anti-ZIONIST-Israel is not antisemitic.
    Many of the articles posted here have originated from known hate sites. While I have no problem with open debate, I do have a problem when there is clear bias against a group of people. (People who support Israel) and it's used to perpetuate an agenda or reinforce a negative stereotype.
    Its easy to throw that HATE word, but there is no truth to your statement.
    Whether you realize it or not ZG, by bashing Israel, you ultimately end up causing hatred against Jews since the two will forever be linked as long as Jews have Israel as a homeland.
    By bashing you mean criticizing? Criticizing Israel causes hatred against Jews? This is a key issue that must be examined closely: Criticizing Israel = Fomentation of Jewish Hatred? Therefore Israel must not be criticized?
    By continuing to allow the Zen Zone in its present format to exist takes away credibility and professionalism from the site.
    I am saddened by your entire adhominen innuendo. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLASH1296 View Post
    I have long wondered why a person of
    Ken Smith's intellectual caliber is not
    embarrassed by hosting such a septic mess.
    That's funny, I thought Ken was being rather open-minded, and maybe even a little adventurous, by allowing the ZZone to be here.

    BTW, the traditional term is not "septic mess", it's "cesspool of hatred".*




    *An inside joke that maybe only zg will get.

  13. #43
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    For those who seem focused on the many anti-Israel posts, they could help by contributing to an equal number of pro-Israel posts. For those who see Israel bashing, maybe they in turn are seen as Palestinian bashers.

    I believe we should respect the intellectual integrity of those who disagree with us, be they Christians or atheists or TMers or Buddhists, etc., pro-Zionist or anti-Zionist, pro-capitalist or pro-socialist, pro-government or anti-government, etc., etc. People are going to communicate one way or another, so I welcome a forum in which I can at least express my own point of view, take it or leave it.

    If I am always totally outnumbered, yes, maybe I will go somewhere else--like, what's the use! But as it stands, there are many who share views, maybe not identical, but similar to my own. And in the process, I have learned a ton.

    The Zen Zone has really helped me to delve into many world issues that I formerly had only a passing knowledge. The mental challenge alone makes Zen Zone worthwhile, because people here know what they are talking about, whether you agree with them or not. For forcing me to confront the world around me, to deal with hard facts, and to wrestle with the conventional wisdom and mainstream reporting instead of taking it for granted, I am appreciative of zengrifter and his Zen Zone.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  14. #44
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    Default Zen

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    "Jew bashing," huh?

    Anti-ZIONIST-Israel is not antisemitic.

    Its easy to throw that HATE word, but there is no truth to your statement.

    By bashing you mean criticizing? Criticizing Israel causes hatred against Jews? This is a key issue that must be examined closely: Criticizing Israel = Fomentation of Jewish Hatred? Therefore Israel must not be criticized?

    I am saddened by your entire adhominen innuendo. zg
    Zen,

    I think we have heard it all now and the reason your page will be gone. You have posed a very strong argument, and a correct one in my estimation, but you know you are going to lose, even the US Congress cannot stand up to Israel. I understood this was not about Jews, I love Jews, (especially Jewish women ) but I do not like our country being controlled by another country and all that that entails.

    I also am dismayed that my people get no attention at all for their plight here, but Israel gets all sorts of attention for what happened to them, over there, some 60 years ago.

    CP
    "Midwest Masters Of Advantage", "Strength and Honor."

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    "Jew bashing," huh?

    Anti-ZIONIST-Israel is not antisemitic.

    Its easy to throw that HATE word, but there is no truth to your statement.

    By bashing you mean criticizing? Criticizing Israel causes hatred against Jews? This is a key issue that must be examined closely: Criticizing Israel = Fomentation of Jewish Hatred? Therefore Israel must not be criticized?

    I am saddened by your entire adhominen innuendo. zg
    I never claimed that being Ant-Israel or Anti-Zionist is directly antisemitic, but far too often it leads to antisemitism so the line can easily blur.

    Yes by bashing, I mean criticizing. As I mentioned, when you criticize something over and over again, it can often lead to hatred of that thing. It's propaganda for dummies. Unfortunately while many people on this board do possess the intelligence to not easily fall for it, there are some who are impressionable.
    Let me give you an example. I personally know someone who is a police officer who told me directly to my face when the September 11th attacks happened, he blamed it on Israel and the Jews. Why you ask? Because he had heard many times that Israel had far too much control over US foreign policy and as a result, Osama Bin Laden decided to take his anger out on the USA. From there, he grew to hate Jews more and more.
    This is how while you may see anti-Israel bashing as being totally innocent, it's not, especially when it is the only country where Jews are the majority. Now if there were other countries where that was the case, then this wouldn't be an issue but that isn't the case. So yes, overly criticizing Israel can easily lead to the fermentation of hatred of Jews.

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