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Thread: Is Jesus a Myth?

  1. #31
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    Default Jesus appears to Joseph Smith as God and Jesus and himself and...

    "
    ...But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction--not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being--just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
    One of them . . . said, pointing to the other--"This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"
    It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other--"This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"...
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    Last edited by Katweezel; May 31st, 2009 at 10:44 PM.
    Dogma schmogma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Not only is this Aslan speech a call to arms (brothers and sisters of the cross,) but it's also a declaration of war on all those non-christian heathens and pagans who believe other ideas that may be more meaningful. A great teacher from the East said long ago: "Be more in allowance of other peoples' journeys."

    Let's face it, christians really cannot tolerate different beliefs, let alone be in allowance of them.
    There is a difference between tolerating different beliefs, and accepting different beliefs as your own.

    You are welcome to believe whatever you want to believe. That is the essence of tolerance, in that I believe one thing, but leave you free to believe whatever you want to believe. No one could be more allowing of other people's journeys than the Christian.

    Did you think that a true follower of Jesus Christ could fall into your crafty little trap? What do you believe you will gain by attacking the Christian faith? Do you imagine that if you can bring Christianity into disrepute that it will make it any less true? Nothing could be further from the truth. The Author of Truth was put to death and it became the foundation of His Church.

    I'll tell you a little secret, and it comes right out of Revelations. God will not abandon you if you are either hot or cold toward Him. If you are cold, He at least has something to work with. If you want Him to completely reject you, all you have to do is be indifferent, or lukewarm, as the Scriptures say:
    So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

    Remember what He said to Saul [later named Paul] when he was persecuting the Church? Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.

    Keep fighting Christ, and you may end up as Paul, a champion of Christianity.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  3. #33
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    Default Lookalikes

    Although the guys in togas look alike, God is slightly taller than Jesus.
    Dogma schmogma

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Although the guys in togas look alike, God is slightly taller than Jesus.
    Actually, that is Jesus wearing elevator sandals. az
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  5. #35
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    Default Go an sin no more brother

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Actually, that is Jesus wearing elevator sandals. az
    Brother Az, beware thou of mock tongue, even unto the sandal, for therein on rest thy salvation and redemption. Even the lowliest scuff canst be but fixedeth. Go ye now and sin no more. Especially no more betteth thy bread in house of sin, with pit.
    Dogma schmogma

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    There is only one God. This is the Christian belief.
    As it is also the Hindu and Buddhist beleif: the many are attributes of the ONE. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
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    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    As it is also the Hindu and Buddhist beleif: the many are attributes of the ONE. zg
    Many describe their god in ways that could not be attributed to the one, true God. He is the Perfect One, Almighty, All Knowing, All Wise, All Loving. If they ascribe all these and other perfect qualities to Him, then, yes, I would say they are referring to the same God. However, if they do not attribute to Him His Triune Nature, and if they do not accept Jesus Christ as God Incarnate, God made Man, then they have a false notion about God. And if they attribute evil attributes to Him, then their god is not the one. true God.

    The Jews, for instance, worship the same God as the Christians, yet they do not recognize His Triune Nature. It is the same God, but they have a false notion about Him when they refuse to accept the Son. If they reject the Son, they unwittingly reject God Himself. Anyone who does not accept the Son of God, rejects God, the Father, who sent Him. You cannot have it both ways.
    3 We can be sure that we know God if we obey his commands.4 Anyone who says, "I know God," but does not obey God's commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.5 But if someone obeys God's teaching, then in that person God's love has truly reached its goal. This is how we can be sure we are living in God:6 Whoever says that he lives in God must live as Jesus lived. John 1

    ...22 Who is the liar? It is the person who does not accept Jesus as the Christ. This is the enemy of Christ: the person who does not accept the Father and his Son.23 Whoever does not accept the Son does not have the Father. But whoever confesses the Son has the Father, too. John 1
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  8. #38
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    Default

    If you understand it, then I must tell you that you don't understand it. That's why it is called a mystery.
    You see there in lies the problem. In the end if the questions pertaining to God need to be answered by its a mystery, or, God works in mysterious ways, then it is no longer an answer. It is an admission that there is no answer. Where in any other discourse of your life can you get away with answering questions with "I don't know its a mystery" and have it still be a valid point of view?

    It is beyond human comprehension. Maz will like that. For him, if you can't touch it, smell it, taste it, hear it, or see it, it ain't real. That's what I call limited vision--that is, believing that there is nothing outside one's ordinary senses.
    I believe in gravity and yet my senses do not give me the information needed to process my belief in it. That is unless you count common sense. Testibility and evidence is what rules my decision making on complex issues. Its many degrees less important to me to dig for the truth on trivial matters that have no real bearing on outcomes of life. You could tell me your name is Bill, and even if its not, who cares? But like I have said many times before, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The bible nor religion in general offer up any real evidence for their outlandish claims.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAZ View Post
    You see there in lies the problem. In the end if the questions pertaining to God need to be answered by its a mystery, or, God works in mysterious ways, then it is no longer an answer. It is an admission that there is no answer. Where in any other discourse of your life can you get away with answering questions with "I don't know its a mystery" and have it still be a valid point of view?

    Always we get finite answers for infinite questions. lol I get it--unless the Infinite God agrees to come down to your terms, you will not believe. Well, He did. He became Incarnate, and you still do not believe. All you can think of is how to disprove that Jesus was Who He said He was, or that He didn't say it at all. Put that much energy in the other direction and you would have been a believer long ago.

    I have spiritual senses and through them I can see what you without those senses cannot see. I can never agree to your contentions because I can see differently. You are wrong, but I cannot prove it to you, because you don't have the wherewithal to understand what I am talking about. Ask for the gift of faith and the release of the Holy Spirit upon you. After you have received, no more discussion will be necessary.


    I believe in gravity and yet my senses do not give me the information needed to process my belief in it. That is unless you count common sense. Testibility and evidence is what rules my decision making on complex issues. Its many degrees less important to me to dig for the truth on trivial matters that have no real bearing on outcomes of life. You could tell me your name is Bill, and even if its not, who cares? But like I have said many times before, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The bible nor religion in general offer up any real evidence for their outlandish claims.

    You believe in gravity, yet you do not understand it. That is why we have gravitational theories. It is still a mystery, even though we can measure its effect and we can experience it. I believe in God, but I can't understand His makeup. I can experience Him through my spiritual senses, but He is still a mystery to me. I have no problem with that. In matters of the infinite, I believe that my finite mind will be unable to comprehend it. That makes sense to me, since I able unable to comprehend the idea of infinity itself, except in the vaguest of ways.
    .
    Last edited by aslan; June 1st, 2009 at 12:31 PM.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  10. #40
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    Default Head honcho rulebook

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Many describe their god in ways that could not be attributed to the one, true God. He is the Perfect One, Almighty, All Knowing, All Wise, All Loving. If they ascribe all these and other perfect qualities to Him, then, yes, I would say they are referring to the same God. However, if they do not attribute to Him His Triune Nature, and if they do not accept Jesus Christ as God Incarnate, God made Man, then they have a false notion about God. And if they attribute evil attributes to Him, then their god is not the one. true God.

    The Jews, for instance, worship the same God as the Christians, yet they do not recognize His Triune Nature. It is the same God, but they have a false notion about Him when they refuse to accept the Son. If they reject the Son, they unwittingly reject God Himself. Anyone who does not accept the Son of God, rejects God, the Father, who sent Him. You cannot have it both ways.
    3 We can be sure that we know God if we obey his commands.4 Anyone who says, "I know God," but does not obey God's commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.5 But if someone obeys God's teaching, then in that person God's love has truly reached its goal. This is how we can be sure we are living in God:6 Whoever says that he lives in God must live as Jesus lived. John 1

    ...22 Who is the liar? It is the person who does not accept Jesus as the Christ. This is the enemy of Christ: the person who does not accept the Father and his Son.23 Whoever does not accept the Son does not have the Father. But whoever confesses the Son has the Father, too. John 1
    Aslan..."Obey god's commands"...
    More basic absurdity at the root of the philosophy/story. On the one hand, god sees fit to give us commandments so that we know we should not kill, (exept if it's one of them damn sinners, like a Taliban for example, or someone trying to kill Aslan.) But on the other hand, god gives us free will, presumably, to do as we wish. So what is it supposed to be, god? Free will, or follow the heavy-dude rules of the head honcho? In realilty, god never trusted his creations, now did he? That's why they needed a rulebook. We were supposedly created in the image of uh, god, but apparently humans are born into gross stupidity and need some rules of advice, so they can finally wake up that coveting, killing, stealing and worshiping false idols will get you into trouble.

    Well I've got some news for god. Most of us already knew that basic stuff after about 5 years of age, when we learned it at school. Now seeing as his old rulebook has basically been a complete waste of time, money and effort, he should take it back and shove it. This rulebook guff has proved worse than useless to humanity as a whole. It has only been of use to those few who thought they need a rulebook and someone to tell them stuff.
    Dogma schmogma

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAZ View Post
    The bible nor religion in general offer up any real evidence for their outlandish claims.
    Does either the Bible or religion in general profess to offer up tangible evidence for supernatural claims? The Bible specifically states that faith is to believe what is unseen.

    The universe appears wholly natural by definition - if the supernatural could be explained naturally, they wouldn't be considered supernatural to begin with. If you choose to assume metaphysical naturalism as a precondition for epistemology, don't be surprised when you get a metaphysical naturalist response to your questions.

    Put this way - let's say you invented a test to see whether God was real. What would you use as a positive control to ensure your test functioned properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadroch View Post
    A better question would be what would Jesus think of todays churchs and what they have done in his name.
    This needn't be a huge mystery. Look at the way that Jesus treated his disciples - they did a lot of stuff in his name, both good and bad, and Jesus is pretty blunt in praising or criticizing them.

  12. #42
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    Default Jesus Myth

    I know one thing for sure about Jesus is that he is love. He stated that the most important command that He gave us all is to love one another. If we love one another the way he loves us which is pretty hard to do with some people the world on the whole would not have the problems we have.
    I have heard countless arguments for and against Jesus and what his message is for the human race. If you don't believe in him or what he said then so be it condem yourself. You don't know him now, he won't know you after you pass from this life. You do not choose to believe in him He chooses you to believe in him so put it to rest my brothers. blackchipjim
    " That we may meet in a better place after this!"

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    If it wasn't perverted, corrupted, and mythologized right from the beginning, for earthly political reasons, there would not have been any need to re-date the Beloved Divine Savior's birthday, to overlay it on established pagan solstice. If there were any sincerity whatsoever, how could such a miraculous auspicious day not be respected? zg
    You are so blind, zg. You imagine sinister motives in everything. What did this to you?
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Default Gravity even affects spiders

    ASLAN : "You believe in gravity, yet you do not understand it. That is why we have gravitational theories. It is still a mystery, even though we can measure its effect and we can experience it. I believe in God, but I can't understand His makeup. I can experience Him through my spiritual senses, but He is still a mystery to me. I have no problem with that. In matters of the infinite, I believe that my finite mind will be unable to comprehend it. That makes sense to me, since I able unable to comprehend the idea of infinity itself, except in the vaguest of ways."
    There is no mystery for Spiderman. He understands it completely. His web does not go straight.
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    Dogma schmogma

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    Default Pentecostals are also right

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Many describe their god in ways that could not be attributed to the one, true God. He is the Perfect One, Almighty, All Knowing, All Wise, All Loving. If they ascribe all these and other perfect qualities to Him, then, yes, I would say they are referring to the same God. However, if they do not attribute to Him His Triune Nature, and if they do not accept Jesus Christ as God Incarnate, God made Man, then they have a false notion about God. And if they attribute evil attributes to Him, then their god is not the one. true God.

    The Jews, for instance, worship the same God as the Christians, yet they do not recognize His Triune Nature. It is the same God, but they have a false notion about Him when they refuse to accept the Son. If they reject the Son, they unwittingly reject God Himself. Anyone who does not accept the Son of God, rejects God, the Father, who sent Him. You cannot have it both ways.
    3 We can be sure that we know God if we obey his commands.4 Anyone who says, "I know God," but does not obey God's commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.5 But if someone obeys God's teaching, then in that person God's love has truly reached its goal. This is how we can be sure we are living in God:6 Whoever says that he lives in God must live as Jesus lived. John 1

    ...22 Who is the liar? It is the person who does not accept Jesus as the Christ. This is the enemy of Christ: the person who does not accept the Father and his Son.23 Whoever does not accept the Son does not have the Father. But whoever confesses the Son has the Father, too. John 1
    PENTECOSTAL VIEW ON GOD AND JESUS
    refuting the errors

    "Oneness Pentecostals teach, among other things, that God is One Person. They call this “The Oneness of God” which is a modern day version of a third century heresy known as “Monarchianism”. Monarchianism and Oneness Theology both teach one God and one Person. They deny the doctrine of the Trinity. Another common name for their belief is “Jesus only” Pentecostalism. They believe that only Jesus is God, denying any separate persons of the Father and the Holy Spirit, stating that the Father and the Spirit are the divine nature of Jesus Christ.

    Patripassionism and Sabellianism returns!
    Sabellius was a third century heretic who claimed that God was three only in relation to the world. He claimed that God appeared in three different manifestations or “modes”. Sabellius taught a more sophisticated form of patripassionism. Patripassionism is the belief that the Father had come to earth and died under the appearance of the Son [patri=father; passion=suffer]. Sabellius taught that a divine monad, through a process of expansion projected itself successively in revelation as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. As Father it revealed itself as Creator and Lawgiver. As Son it revealed itself as Redeemer, and as Spirit it revealed itself as the giver of grace. All three modes were expressions of the same person.
    A prominent leader in the oneness movement is Ken Raggio, he says, “Most people do not realize that Jesus Christ was only literal incarnation of the one Holy Spirit - our Father”
    Patripassionists and Oneness Pentecostals teach that God the Father came into a body, forming the person we call Jesus.

    To refute Oneness theology, we need to establish two facts:
    1) The Son of God is divine and not merely the human nature of Jesus.
    2) The Son of God and the Father are distinct persons."

    Kwtzl: This group uses the term persons for both Jesus and god, like as if they are still walking around alive somewhere. It was tough for me to try to get one of those persons, but two? Thank god they don't go for three.
    Dogma schmogma

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