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Thread: Philosophers and Philosophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Re: this thread: Philosophers and Philosophy...
    Here are the names of the (mostly dead) people mentioned here already on this thread: Descartes, Kant, Husserl, Popper, Russell, Kierkegaard, Hunter, Thompson, Zimmerman, Rand, Ditko, Epicurus, Paine, Plato, Socrates, Sartre, Witgenstein, Tolle.

    If I read something, I try to apply three guidelines after I read it, and again further down the track. 1 Did I understand the book's content, context and the author's ideas? 2 Was it worth the reading time and effort and how much of it did I retain? 3 Did it help me run, or improve my life in any way?

    A human foible seems to be that if I announce that "I read Freud and Jung" I am somehow a learned one in those two areas and therefore I claim some superiority, status or elitism because of that. Never mind how much I understood or retained, or if I actually completed the whole book! (Of course I am not suggesting this applies to anyone here, who obviously read their books all the way through, understood and retained...didn't you...

    Then, up pops a philosophical enigma, in the form of one Eckhart Tolle. A living, breathing, talking philosopher; one who is not dead yet, whose remarkable experience tips us out of our easy chairs, right onto our butts. His insights ("I cannot live with myself" ...vortex of energy, ...more to light than we realize... deep peace and bliss...false suffering self collapsed... I am... consciousness in its pure state...indescribable bliss and sacredness... intense joy... your mind is making too much noise, and so on) give us philosophical food for thought for much discussion here, for those interested.

    His description of his experience is what I believe is the true 'religious' experience of and from ancient human times; long before texts, scriptures and dogma hijacked the common human wealth, for their own misguided self-serving purposes. For this reason, it may be better to leave dogmas, creed and religious beliefs out of this discussion.
    On the contrary, his experience of the true religious experience is nothing that the Christian saints.mystics did not experience, except that they also had a context within which to understand what they were experiencing, while poor Tolle was kind of "out there" trying to figure out what had happened to him. For a real understanding of the religious experience, I submit the Christian saints and mystics are a better source, not to say that Tolle's experience was not legitimate--that's not what I'm saying. And yes, I believe that Christian mystics can learn something from eastern religions and their approach to meditation and reaching out to God, but by the same token, eastern mystics would better understand their own mystical religious experiences if they consulted the Christian mystics, who in my opinion, have it in the right context. This is said in all humility, so please do not see it as an arrogant position or oneupsmanship. It's simply the way I view it in all honesty.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    I'm in a 19th and 20th cent phil class now, would anyone be willing to (in order to add a lil structure to the thread) discuss new topics weekly based on the assignments i have to read? Could be fun
    i'm your huckleberry - Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by ace157 View Post
    I'm in a 19th and 20th cent phil class now, would anyone be willing to (in order to add a lil structure to the thread) discuss new topics weekly based on the assignments i have to read? Could be fun
    Can't hurt to try.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Default Structure class is in.

    Quote Originally Posted by ace157 View Post
    I'm in a 19th and 20th cent phil class now, would anyone be willing to (in order to add a lil structure to the thread) discuss new topics weekly based on the assignments i have to read? Could be fun
    Are you trying to force us to use our brains?
    PS I never got aroung to reading Freud nor Jung. Could be too late now.
    Dogma schmogma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Are you trying to force us to use our brains?
    .
    yup lol
    no more simple math
    i'm your huckleberry - Doc

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    Default Philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by ace157 View Post
    yup lol
    no more simple math
    Ace157, There are some who frequent here, (and others not so frequently) who can philosophize with the best of them, if they so choose. Maz and Nazgul are two who spring readily to mind. But they are probably busy, out there legally dipping into casinos' cash reserves, instead of engaging minds in long-winded dissertations about Plato's obsessive nature or something.

    But if you are lucky, and your timing is right, you may catch one on R & R. So I tried to cook up some bait... with 2 questions:

    1 When, in ancient times, the concept of "God" became widespread, how did it come to pass that so many different religions hijacked the concept for their own purposes, with their own interpretations? 2 The concept of God continues to mystify humans. How is it so little is a) known and b) understood, about this concept; if you leave out religious dogma 'explanations.'
    Dogma schmogma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Ace157, There are some who frequent here, (and others not so frequently) who can philosophize with the best of them, if they so choose. Maz and Nazgul are two who spring readily to mind. But they are probably busy, out there legally dipping into casinos' cash reserves, instead of engaging minds in long-winded dissertations about Plato's obsessive nature or something.

    But if you are lucky, and your timing is right, you may catch one on R & R. So I tried to cook up some bait... with 2 questions:

    1 When, in ancient times, the concept of "God" became widespread, how did it come to pass that so many different religions hijacked the concept for their own purposes, with their own interpretations? 2 The concept of God continues to mystify humans. How is it so little is a) known and b) understood, about this concept; if you leave out religious dogma 'explanations.'
    What do you mean by "religious dogma explanations" and why do you always want to leave them out? Doesn't sound so "scientific" to me if you want to leave out an entire area of inquiry, and in fact, the one area than is most commonly accepted. Let's talk about cigarette use, but only cigarette users are allowed. That should provide a well rounded, fully packed point of view that will travel the discussion further, outstanding.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Are you trying to force us to use our brains?
    PS I never got aroung to reading Freud nor Jung. Could be too late now.
    you don't need it Kat, that couch therapy theory of yours trumps them all.
    best regards,
    mr fr0g MMOA honorary predator
    STRENGTH - HONOR - HEART
    that's my take on it your mileage may vary.
    for senior citizen fuzzy count click link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrTiP4ZIUfI

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Ace157, There are some who frequent here, (and others not so frequently) who can philosophize with the best of them, if they so choose. Maz and Nazgul are two who spring readily to mind. But they are probably busy, out there legally dipping into casinos' cash reserves, instead of engaging minds in long-winded dissertations about Plato's obsessive nature or something.

    But if you are lucky, and your timing is right, you may catch one on R & R. So I tried to cook up some bait... with 2 questions:

    1 When, in ancient times, the concept of "God" became widespread, how did it come to pass that so many different religions hijacked the concept for their own purposes, with their own interpretations? 2 The concept of God continues to mystify humans. How is it so little is a) known and b) understood, about this concept; if you leave out religious dogma 'explanations.'
    Rather, let's discuss the philosophy of the equality of the sexes. Here is a video of scientific observation of female skill sets at work to get things started: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtBxhFc24A
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post

    1 When, in ancient times, the concept of "God" became widespread, how did it come to pass that so many different religions hijacked the concept for their own purposes, with their own interpretations? 2 The concept of God continues to mystify humans. How is it so little is a) known and b) understood, about this concept; if you leave out religious dogma 'explanations.'
    Good questions my friend,

    1) well if you take the ancient Jews in Egypt for example (being pretty old/ancient), think different conceptions of God came about because oppressed peoples needed something to believe in. And the oppressed worshiping the "God" of the oppressors wasn't cuttn' the mustard. In a more modern sense, ever since the 60's the world has been on a hunch for civil rights.. part of that is religious freedom. The result is that you get new denominations (of Christianity) sprouting up all the time.

    2A) I'll refer back to my buddy Kant to explain that the reason so little is known about God because he is to us what a scientist is to an experiment. Humans are inside the box and its impossible for us to obtain the bird's eye view and look around to see God. Also, the best example of this is Hegel's Philosophy of History and History of Philosophy... other than the fact that Hegel fancies himself enlightened and able to see the entire process in play

    2B) If you wish to "understand" God without using religious dogma, that is a difficult task, but it is possible. Kant weighs heavy on the principle of faith, and Kierkegaard on a Leap based on belief. Essentially it is (I should think) that the dogmas are designed to help people of that faith UNDERSTAND their interpretation of God. Without these texts I suspect that the only way to understand God would be to "feel" or "believe" (based on you personal virtue and ethics) what (in fact) God is.
    i'm your huckleberry - Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by ace157 View Post
    Good questions my friend,

    1) well if you take the ancient Jews in Egypt for example (being pretty old/ancient), think different conceptions of God came about because oppressed peoples needed something to believe in. And the oppressed worshiping the "God" of the oppressors wasn't cuttn' the mustard. In a more modern sense, ever since the 60's the world has been on a hunch for civil rights.. part of that is religious freedom. The result is that you get new denominations (of Christianity) sprouting up all the time.

    2A) I'll refer back to my buddy Kant to explain that the reason so little is known about God because he is to us what a scientist is to an experiment. Humans are inside the box and its impossible for us to obtain the bird's eye view and look around to see God. Also, the best example of this is Hegel's Philosophy of History and History of Philosophy... other than the fact that Hegel fancies himself enlightened and able to see the entire process in play

    2B) If you wish to "understand" God without using religious dogma, that is a difficult task, but it is possible. Kant weighs heavy on the principle of faith, and Kierkegaard on a Leap based on belief. Essentially it is (I should think) that the dogmas are designed to help people of that faith UNDERSTAND their interpretation of God. Without these texts I suspect that the only way to understand God would be to "feel" or "believe" (based on you personal virtue and ethics) what (in fact) God is.
    Add "experience" to "feel" or "believe."
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Add "experience" to "feel" or "believe."
    i concur
    i'm your huckleberry - Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    ... 2 The concept of God continues to mystify humans. How is it so little is a) known and b) understood, about this concept; if you leave out religious dogma 'explanations.'
    heck if i know. there was a nat geo or maybe history channel show on a while back trying to show the way back times of early mankind.
    anyway the show tried to portray the question of God arising as part of the grief process when death occurred.
    i suppose the idea was along the lines of people wondering if their loved ones still existed in some way, where did they go and hmm, where did we ultimately come from in the first place, sort of thing.
    best regards,
    mr fr0g MMOA honorary predator
    STRENGTH - HONOR - HEART
    that's my take on it your mileage may vary.
    for senior citizen fuzzy count click link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrTiP4ZIUfI

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    Default here we go

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Can't hurt to try.
    Lets start with a lil Nietzsche - my assignment for this week was "the birth of tragedy", "the genealogy of morality" and "thus spoke zarthustra"

    I've only gotten through "the birth of tragedy" so far, but here's my thoughts

    There is a stark comparison between the Greek gods Apollo and Dionysus. Essentially this is where tragedy begins. Followers of Apollo would get their inspiration for poetry and art through dreams while Dionystic artist would get theirs from intoxication. You find a great struggle here because the ones who get intoxicated are trying to embellish on the brutalities of their society, yet the ones who dream are afraid to face such convictions. You also have the Greeks creating their system of gods who are on such a plane of existence that there is no such thing as good or bad; Nietzsche describes it as the "divine comedy of life" The greeks developed fictitious idols that symbolized everything they wished they could become (kind of like the movie Fight Club). Nietzsche also mentions King Midas whom hunts a companion of Dionysus and asked the creature what is best for mankind? and the creature replied "for you to have never been born and second best would be for you to die soon." And so the cycle continues in the embodiment of martyrs. And the contradiction between the arts is seen in struggle between science and religion. Each extreme suffers because they are bent on "the truth" rather than the realizing that it is in the quest for the truth that the substance of "truth" is gathered. There is no enlightenment, only learning... and the best teach is life and the school of hard knocks.

    ** those aren't all my personal opinions, just what i gathered from the reading
    i'm your huckleberry - Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by ace157 View Post
    Lets start with a lil Nietzsche - my assignment for this week was "the birth of tragedy", "the genealogy of morality" and "thus spoke zarthustra"

    I've only gotten through "the birth of tragedy" so far, but here's my thoughts

    There is a stark comparison between the Greek gods Apollo and Dionysus. Essentially this is where tragedy begins. Followers of Apollo would get their inspiration for poetry and art through dreams while Dionystic artist would get theirs from intoxication. You find a great struggle here because the ones who get intoxicated are trying to embellish on the brutalities of their society, yet the ones who dream are afraid to face such convictions. You also have the Greeks creating their system of gods who are on such a plane of existence that there is no such thing as good or bad; Nietzsche describes it as the "divine comedy of life" The greeks developed fictitious idols that symbolized everything they wished they could become (kind of like the movie Fight Club). Nietzsche also mentions King Midas whom hunts a companion of Dionysus and asked the creature what is best for mankind? and the creature replied "for you to have never been born and second best would be for you to die soon." And so the cycle continues in the embodiment of martyrs. And the contradiction between the arts is seen in struggle between science and religion. Each extreme suffers because they are bent on "the truth" rather than the realizing that it is in the quest for the truth that the substance of "truth" is gathered. There is no enlightenment, only learning... and the best teach is life and the school of hard knocks.

    ** those aren't all my personal opinions, just what i gathered from the reading
    By dreams is it meant that they get their inspiration through imagination, that is, through natural means? Do we not have the same controversy today with those who turn to drugs for their creativity as opposed to those who find creative power as an attribute of their human nature, unadulterated, pure and natural? I know pool players who cannot play pool without smoking a joint or snorting cocaine. Drugs are a crutch, an artificial stimulus, with results for a time, but leading to distortion, imbalance, sickness, and dependency.

    Both truth and the quest for truth are important, but for the religious, at least to me, truth becomes not an equation or a set of data points, but a quest for men to experience, to know, their Truth, their God, by relationship, interaction, spiritual knowledge. Truth becomes man who is truth with a small "t," a sort of unterwahrheitmensch if that is a correct translation, touching, conversing with, knowing, Truth with a capital "T", the Transzendent Wesen or Ubermensch, the Perfektwahrheit, Gott. But for the other, the user of intoxicants, truth becomes the quest to become the ubermensch--there is no God, only die ubermensch, die Gott bemannen. Maybe in today's term, the scientist is the ubermensch.

    For me, the experience is the enlightenment and vice versa, but I am not talking on the earthly plane, but at a transcendent level, a spiritual plane.

    I hope my German is close enough, because I know you can say some funny things in German with too literal a translation.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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