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  1. #46
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    Default Descartes in error

    Quote Originally Posted by ace157 View Post
    well you can go a couple ways for on that matter of belief. Descartes will say that there are indeed things that we can know for certain... like our existence. Or if u prefer to go with the belief route, Kant places a great emphasis on faith, and Kierkegaard focuses on a "leap" ... thus we get the term "leap of faith"
    Here is what modern-day philosopher, mystic and very-successful author, Eckhart Tolle had to say about Descartes' famous quote: "I think, therefore I am."

    'The philosopher, Descartes believed that he had found the most fundamental truth when he made his most famous statement. He had, in fact, given expression to the most basic error: to equate thinking with Being and identity with thinking. The compulsive thinker, which means almost everyone, lives in a state of apparent separateness, in an insanely complex world of continuous problems and conflict, a world that reflects the ever-increasing fragmentation of the mind. Enlightenment is a state of wholeness, of being "at one" and therefore at peace. At one with life in its manifested aspect, the world, as well as with your deepest self and life unmanifested - at one with Being. Enlightenment is not only the end of suffering and of continuous conflict within and without, but also the end of the dreadful enslavement to incessant thinking. What an incredible liberation this is!'
    Dogma schmogma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Here is what modern-day philosopher, mystic and very-successful author, Eckhart Tolle had to say about Descartes' famous quote: "I think, therefore I am."

    'The philosopher, Descartes believed that he had found the most fundamental truth when he made his most famous statement. He had, in fact, given expression to the most basic error: to equate thinking with Being and identity with thinking. The compulsive thinker, which means almost everyone, lives in a state of apparent separateness, in an insanely complex world of continuous problems and conflict, a world that reflects the ever-increasing fragmentation of the mind. Enlightenment is a state of wholeness, of being "at one" and therefore at peace. At one with life in its manifested aspect, the world, as well as with your deepest self and life unmanifested - at one with Being. Enlightenment is not only the end of suffering and of continuous conflict within and without, but also the end of the dreadful enslavement to incessant thinking. What an incredible liberation this is!'
    On the contrary, he did not say that thinking was equal to being, only that it was sufficient evidence of his being. He never attempted to say anything as to what constitutes perfect being or enlightenment. Where do you see that inference in his statement? Even if you believe that thinking is the manifestation of a false illusory self, as per zg, then thinking still is evidence, evidence of that false illusory self, which even if it doesn't exist, is itself evidence of the real self, if that is how you are disposed to think about it. No, I think you are giving Descartes a bad rap. What he said makes perfect sense to me, or my illusory self, if you prefer. lol
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Default Crowning glory?

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Woman is the crowning glory of God's creation. Where did you get the misconception that she is somehow second class? Surely, not from the Bible. haha You slay me, Katwhiskers. Do you suppose that everyone has your same distorted view of Christianity?

    A very small percentage of priests are involved in pedophilia (2% to 5%), a disgrace to be sure, but better than the percentage of original apostles who betrayed Jesus Christ (2/12=16.7%). The rate of pedophilia for clergy of other religions is the same as for priests, between 2% and 5%. The rate of pedophilia in the general population is 8%.
    Who told you woman is the crowning glory of god's creation? I think you either made that up or you learned it by rote from the catchecism. As for the conception that woman is somehow second class, you need to read the bible again mate, this time with your female aspect dominant. If you do, you will notice it is jam-packed full of sexist stuff, from start to finish, and was obviously written by a series of old misogynists. Just take those blinkers off.

    Your figures on clerical pedophilia certainly would not inspire me to send my children to any church. The figures 'look good' against the figure for the general population, however; that small percentage of deviates is waiting in some church, disguised, and concentrated in one spot, for new victims. My kids I figure would be better off away from the risk of such a terrible crime. And they could go somewhere else to learn more truthful, more helpful concepts, which are beyond christianity, and beyond most all other religions.
    Dogma schmogma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Who told you woman is the crowning glory of god's creation? I think you either made that up or you learned it by rote from the catchecism. As for the conception that woman is somehow second class, you need to read the bible again mate, this time with your female aspect dominant. If you do, you will notice it is jam-packed full of sexist stuff, from start to finish, and was obviously written by a series of old misogynists. Just take those blinkers off.

    Your figures on clerical pedophilia certainly would not inspire me to send my children to any church. The figures 'look good' against the figure for the general population, however; that small percentage of deviates is waiting in some church, disguised, and concentrated in one spot, for new victims. My kids I figure would be better off away from the risk of such a terrible crime. And they could go somewhere else to learn more truthful, more helpful concepts, which are beyond christianity, and beyond most all other religions.
    Where are you going to send them, KatMeasles? Don't you think that the public and other private schools have their own pedophilia compliment just waiting for your kids. At least the church has been purified and Bishops put on notice. There is now screening and openness like never before. Better in the church than facing that 8% in the general population.

    When you read the bible, KatGrizzle, you have to separate what is a reporting of things that happened historically speaking and what God is teaching in spirit and in truth. The Bible as a historical record is one thing; the Bible as a spiritual text is quite another. My Christianity has only taught me to love and appreciate women in ways our population at large has not yet come to. read properly, there is no sexist spiritual teaching in the Bible. None. Nada. Zero. Apparently, we are reading the same texts with different tools for discernment, because I don't get any of the things you do out of my reading.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Default The Power of Now

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    On the contrary, he did not say that thinking was equal to being, only that it was sufficient evidence of his being. He never attempted to say anything as to what constitutes perfect being or enlightenment. Where do you see that inference in his statement? Even if you believe that thinking is the manifestation of a false illusory self, as per zg, then thinking still is evidence, evidence of that false illusory self, which even if it doesn't exist, is itself evidence of the real self, if that is how you are disposed to think about it. No, I think you are giving Descartes a bad rap. What he said makes perfect sense to me, or my illusory self, if you prefer. lol
    Quote from Marc Allen, author of Visionary Business and a Visionary Life: "...The Power of Now has a growing number of devoted readers. It has already been called a masterpiece; whatever it is called, however it is described, it is a book with the power to change lives, the power to awaken us to fully realize who we are..."

    Quote from Tolle's book: The Power of Now:
    "I have little use for the past and rarely think about it; however, I would briefly like to tell you how I came to be a spiritual teacher and how this book came into existence.

    Until my thirtieth year, I lived in a state of almost continuous anxiety interspersed with periods of suicidal depression. It feels now as if I am talking about some past lifetime or somebody else's life. One night, not long after my 29th birthday, I woke up in the early hours with a feeling of absolute dread. I had woken up with such a feeling many times before, but this time it was more intense than it had ever been.

    The silence of the night, the vague outlines of the furniture in the dark room, the distant noise of a passing train - everything felt so alien, so hostile, and so utterly meaningless that it created in me a deep loathing of the world. The most loathsome thing of all, however, was my own existence. What was the point in continuing to live with this burden of misery? Why carry on with this continuous struggle? I could feel that a deep longing for annihilation, for nonexistence, was now becoming much stronger than the instinctive desire to continue to live.

    "I cannot live with myself any longer." This was the thought that kept repeating itself in my mind. Then suddenly I became aware of what a peculiar thought it was. "Am I one or two? If I cannot live with myself, there must be two of me: the 'I' and the 'self' that 'I' cannot live with." "Maybe," I thought, "only one of them is real."

    I was so stunned by this strange realization that my mind stopped. I was fully conscious, but there was no more thoughts. Then I felt drawn into what seemed like a vortex of energy. It was a slow movement at first and then accelerated. I was gripped by an intense fear, and my body started to shake. I heard the words "resist nothing," as if spoken inside my chest. I could feel myself being sucked into a void. It felt as if the void was inside myself rather than outside. Suddenly, there was no more fear, and I let myself fall into that void. I have no recollection of what happened after that.

    I was awakened by the chirping of a bird outside the window. I had never heard such a sound before. My eyes were still closed, and I saw the image of a precious diamond. Yes, if a diamond could make a sound, this is what it would be like. I opened my eyes. The first light of dawn was filtering through the curtains. Without any thought, I felt, I knew, that there is infinitely more to light than we realize. That soft luminosity filtering through the curtains was love itself. Tears came into my eyes. I got up and walked around the room. I recognized the room, and yet I knew that I had never truly seen it before. Everything was fresh and pristine, as if it had just come into existence. I picked up things, a pencil, an empty bottle, marveling at the beauty and aliveness of it all.

    That day I walked around the city in utter amazement at the miracle of life on earth, as if it had just been born into this world. For the next five months, I lived in a state of uninterrupted deep peace and bliss. After that, it diminished somewhat in intensity, or perhaps it just seemed to because it became my natural state. I could still function in the world, although I realized that nothing I ever did could possibly add anything to what I already had.

    I knew, of course, that something profoundly significant had happened to me, but I didn't understand it at all. It wasn't until several years later, after I had read spiritual texts and spent time with spiritual teachers, that I realized that what everybody was looking for had already happened to me. I understood that the intense pressure of suffering that night must have forced my consciousness to withdraw from its identification with the unhappy and deeply fearful self, which is ultimately a fiction of the mind. This withdrawal must have been so complete that this false, suffering self immediately collapsed, just as if a plug had been pulled out of an inflatable toy.

    What was left then was my true nature as the ever-present I am: consciousness in its pure state prior to its identification with form. Later I also learned to go into that inner timeless and deathless realm that I had originally perceived as a void and remain fully conscious. I dwelt in states of such indescribable bliss and sacredness that even the original experience I just described pales in comparison. A time came when, for a while, I was left with nothing on the physical plane. I had no relationships, no job, no home, no socially defined identity. I spent almost two years sitting on park benches in a state of the most intense joy.

    But even the most beautiful experiences come and go. More fundamental, perhaps, than any experience is the undercurrent of peace that has never left me since then. Sometimes it is very strong, almost palpable, and others can feel it too. At other times, it is somewhere in the background, like a distant melody.

    Later, people would occasionally come up to me and say:"I want what you have. Can you give it to me, or show me how to get it?" And I would say: "You have it already. You just can't feel it because your mind is making too much noise." That answer later grew into this book. Before I knew it, I had an external identity again. I had become a spiritual teacher..."
    Dogma schmogma

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    Ahhh! He found the peace that surpasses all understanding! The peace that Christians call the peace of Christ! A mystical experience of oneself in union with God. An infilling of the Holy Spirit. I have experienced it alone and in groups of charismatic Christians. Of course, true faith is not a matter of mystical experiences, but they do help confirm the faith and they are authentic experiences of our union with God and our ultimate destiny if we perservere in faith and good works flowing out of the love He has poured out in our hearts. Tolle has the experience, the sensation, without the truth that goes with it. But that is better than nothing. I hope it is enough to sustain him when deprived of all such experiences, the dark night of the soul.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Default He went past the dark night of the soul, long ago

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Ahhh! He found the peace that surpasses all understanding! The peace that Christians call the peace of Christ! A mystical experience of oneself in union with God. An infilling of the Holy Spirit. I have experienced it alone and in groups of charismatic Christians. Of course, true faith is not a matter of mystical experiences, but they do help confirm the faith and they are authentic experiences of our union with God and our ultimate destiny if we perservere in faith and good works flowing out of the love He has poured out in our hearts. Tolle has the experience, the sensation, without the truth that goes with it. But that is better than nothing. I hope it is enough to sustain him when deprived of all such experiences, the dark night of the soul.
    The experience Tolle described so masterfully happened around 1980 and he finally wrote The Power of Now in 1999. It became an overnight best seller. Since then he has become renowned as one of the world's leading spiritual masters and his world-wide seminars are very popular. He is due in Australia next month for a tour. He maintains a down-to-earth, humble style, with no hype, glamor or razzamatazz. I have several recent DVDs of him at Findhorn and other venues and without fail, his audiences love his very powerful presentations. He has one certain sign of a true master: the ability to speak for two hours solid - and hold a large audience rapt - with NO NOTES. He is a remarkable breath of fresh air, for those looking for that.

    Some Eastern traditions more than six thousand old have long described very similar experiences (that Tolle experienced) as being of God. The intense joy, bliss, love, peace, stillness, sacredness are all common feelings among adepts in many traditions. These Divine feelings can be induced in many traditional ways: meditation, chanting, dance, whirling, diet, fasting, hallucinatory and other, drugs, contemplation, focus, and others.

    Each human being would love to feel 'God'. Reading about, or having an "intellectual enlightenment" from reading philosophies or sacred texts is a conscious mind delusion, tricking you into thinking and believing your conscious mind actually knows something worthwhile.

    Tolle has provided us with a masterful description of the possibilities that exist, beyond the mind. But to access the Infinite beyond the mind, we first need to shut down our thought processes. That is easier said than done for the Western mind. Tolle provides a map. Namaste, Eckhart.
    Dogma schmogma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    The experience Tolle described so masterfully happened around 1980 and he finally wrote The Power of Now in 1999. It became an overnight best seller. Since then he has become renowned as one of the world's leading spiritual masters and his world-wide seminars are very popular. He is due in Australia next month for a tour. He maintains a down-to-earth, humble style, with no hype, glamor or razzamatazz. I have several recent DVDs of him at Findhorn and other venues and without fail, his audiences love his very powerful presentations. He has one certain sign of a true master: the ability to speak for two hours solid - and hold a large audience rapt - with NO NOTES. He is a remarkable breath of fresh air, for those looking for that.

    Some Eastern traditions more than six thousand old have long described very similar experiences (that Tolle experienced) as being of God. The intense joy, bliss, love, peace, stillness, sacredness are all common feelings among adepts in many traditions. These Divine feelings can be induced in many traditional ways: meditation, chanting, dance, whirling, diet, fasting, hallucinatory and other, drugs, contemplation, focus, and others.

    Each human being would love to feel 'God'. Reading about, or having an "intellectual enlightenment" from reading philosophies or sacred texts is a conscious mind delusion, tricking you into thinking and believing your conscious mind actually knows something worthwhile.

    Tolle has provided us with a masterful description of the possibilities that exist, beyond the mind. But to access the Infinite beyond the mind, we first need to shut down our thought processes. That is easier said than done for the Western mind. Tolle provides a map. Namaste, Eckhart.
    True Christian mystics do not chase after the mystical feeling. Their quest is God Himself. The fact is, one is not necessarily closer to God because of the feeling, but may actually be closer to God when they are in that dark night of the soul when all seems cold and desolate and God seems far, far away, such as when Jesus hung on the cross as a great gesture of His outpouring of love for all humanity.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    I'm going to write my final paper in 19th and 20th cent phil on Blackjack and Philosophy; about game theory and how card counting is a perfectly imperfect system
    i'm your huckleberry - Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by ace157 View Post
    I'm going to write my final paper in 19th and 20th cent phil on Blackjack and Philosophy; about game theory and how card counting is a perfectly imperfect system
    I count; therefore, I am.... Joey "Reno" Dakar, Omaha , Nebraska
    Last edited by aslan; February 20th, 2009 at 12:41 PM.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    I count; therefore, I am.... Joey "Reno" Dakar, Omaha , Nebraska
    I Count, ...Dracula! Name:  dracula.jpg
Views: 56
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    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackchipjim View Post
    The tsunami that killed 300,000 people on Christmas day a few years ago may have been a message from her katweezal. I found it very strange that one of the hardest hit places was the hot bed for child sex. Is it just coincedence or a warning to the area to clean up or she wil clean it up her way. blackchipjim
    Actually, you are mistaken. The tsunami hit no place near Bangkok. My friends were celebrating their wedding annaversary in Bankkok that nite and said the party was non stop.
    Why not say that the Towers being destroyed was a warning to clean up Times square?
    Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out just how far one can go.


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    Quote Originally Posted by shadroch View Post
    Actually, you are mistaken. The tsunami hit no place near Bangkok. My friends were celebrating their wedding annaversary in Bankkok that nite and said the party was non stop.
    Why not say that the Towers being destroyed was a warning to clean up Times square?
    For you Christians who think in terms of God's intervention in the world, I'm sure you will remember that it was prophets sent by God who declared this or that event as a punishment or reward from God. How many of you are prophets sent by God? How many of us have the inside knowledge of what God thinks and does? Would God destroy all the people in Hollywood including the thousands of innocent people who live there just so he could punish the purveyors of porn? If we are not prophets, then who are we to judge? I cannot think of a single natural calamity in which innocent people were not injured or killed. One either has to be a madman or a prophet to declare any disaster a judgment from God. I do believe, however, that if a nation turns from evil and obeys God's commandments, God will bless that nation. This is a general proposition and cannot be assigned to any particular set of circumstances, since no one knows the mind of God nor the state of people's souls except God.

    The only Christian reaction to natural disasters is to quickly run to the victims' aid. Leave the judgments to the prophets, if any presently exist, and the phony TV evangelists (some of them are phony in this regard, anyway).
    Last edited by aslan; February 20th, 2009 at 01:30 PM.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Default question of judgement

    I think you might be confusing warnings with judgement from God. We already believe we will be judged when we die on judgement day not before. God sends warnings all the time even if you don't want to pay attention. I have seen powerful men reduced to mere shells of themselves is that a warning to the other self centered uncaring and cold men in power?It could be but are we God and do we think like him I would think not. If my close friend drank himself to death is that a warning to me or others not ot over indulge or do continue until it happens to you. Jesus was asked when the tower fell and killed the people in a village was that judgement I do believe he said a Warning. blackchipjim
    " That we may meet in a better place after this!"

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    Default Lot of dead guys

    Re: this thread: Philosophers and Philosophy...
    Here are the names of the (mostly dead) people mentioned here already on this thread: Descartes, Kant, Husserl, Popper, Russell, Kierkegaard, Hunter, Thompson, Zimmerman, Rand, Ditko, Epicurus, Paine, Plato, Socrates, Sartre, Witgenstein, Tolle.

    If I read something, I try to apply three guidelines after I read it, and again further down the track. 1 Did I understand the book's content, context and the author's ideas? 2 Was it worth the reading time and effort and how much of it did I retain? 3 Did it help me run, or improve my life in any way?

    A human foible seems to be that if I announce that "I read Freud and Jung" I am somehow a learned one in those two areas and therefore I claim some superiority, status or elitism because of that. Never mind how much I understood or retained, or if I actually completed the whole book! (Of course I am not suggesting this applies to anyone here, who obviously read their books all the way through, understood and retained...didn't you...

    Then, up pops a philosophical enigma, in the form of one Eckhart Tolle. A living, breathing, talking philosopher; one who is not dead yet, whose remarkable experience tips us out of our easy chairs, right onto our butts. His insights ("I cannot live with myself" ...vortex of energy, ...more to light than we realize... deep peace and bliss...false suffering self collapsed... I am... consciousness in its pure state...indescribable bliss and sacredness... intense joy... your mind is making too much noise, and so on) give us philosophical food for thought for much discussion here, for those interested.

    His description of his experience is what I believe is the true 'religious' experience of and from ancient human times; long before texts, scriptures and dogma hijacked the common human wealth, for their own misguided self-serving purposes. For this reason, it may be better to leave dogmas, creed and religious beliefs out of this discussion.
    Dogma schmogma

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