View Poll Results: What do you believe the future will bring in the long run? A world...

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  • where truth and justice prevail.

    4 14.29%
  • that is better, but still no permanent world peace.

    6 21.43%
  • that is essentially the same.

    6 21.43%
  • that is worse than ever.

    12 42.86%
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Thread: World Peace--Is It Possible?

  1. #46
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    Default Unholy books

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    The same case could just as easily be made about atheism.

    The existence of God is self-evident. Once you get past that, you can build rational constructs that either prove or disprove His existence. But...what's the point? lol
    I like Sam Harris and his 'religion', which makes a lot of uncommon sense to me. Thank you, Maz.

    I don't believe that true world peace is possible until humans finally get rid of the main core cause of the continual, ongoing threat: unholy books espousing their unholy philosophies. I selected just two examples from the two worst unholy books - the Qur'an and the Bible - as an example of the absurdity and danger they represent to humanity.

    The first of these books may have been written by a man who kept slaves, 'heard voices', was once a bandit, thought he may be going mad, and may have been an epileptic.

    Qur'an 48:29: "Islam is ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."
    Q 98:6: "... and that the unbelievers are the worst of created beings."


    The second (old testament) may have been written by old, mysogynist men living in caves, more than 10,000 years ago.
    Exodus 21:7 - 11 gives us the regulations for selling one's daughter as a slave.

    The story of Job and his daughters is an example of god favoring incest.

    Oh my god...
    Dogma schmogma

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    I like Sam Harris and his 'religion', which makes a lot of uncommon sense to me. Thank you, Maz.

    I don't believe that true world peace is possible until humans finally get rid of the main core cause of the continual, ongoing threat: unholy books espousing their unholy philosophies. I selected just two examples from the two worst unholy books - the Qur'an and the Bible - as an example of the absurdity and danger they represent to humanity.

    The first of these books may have been written by a man who kept slaves, 'heard voices', was once a bandit, thought he may be going mad, and may have been an epileptic.

    Qur'an 48:29: "Islam is ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."
    Q 98:6: "... and that the unbelievers are the worst of created beings."


    The second (old testament) may have been written by old, mysogynist men living in caves, more than 10,000 years ago.
    Exodus 21:7 - 11 gives us the regulations for selling one's daughter as a slave.

    The story of Job and his daughters is an example of god favoring incest.

    Oh my god...
    I can't comment on the Koran, as I am not an expert like yourself, and I wonder why you picked the Old Testament instead of the New Testament that explains and puts the Old Testament into perspective? You were close dating the Old Testament in terms of the history of the planet--the first five books of the Bible are dated back to about 1,250 B.C., around the time of Moses.

    As for slavery, at least the Jews HAD some guidelines for dealing with an institution that existed everywhere in the ancient world. You'd fare far better under Jewish guidelines than elsewhere where maybe they had no religion. The fact is, because Jews had guidelines for dealing with the institution of slavery cannot be interpreted to mean that God approved of slavery.

    Job had incestuous relations with his daughters. Really? I guess my Bible is out of date. One might suspect that you lack a certain amount of scholarship to be bandying about glib accusations about the scriptures. Anyway, to help you along, it was Lot who had sex with his daughters. They thought it would be right to preserve his seed, so they got him drunk and had sex with him. The writer of the story, possibly Moses, was simply recording history, not saying that God approved of incest. In fact, the record is clear that the Levitical code forbade incest.

    Too bad that you non-religious folks don't possess any written guidelines on which you base or record your morality, we religious deserve a little time poking fun at you. Truth is, when morals are relative, one might as well not have any morals at all for all the good it does.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  3. #48
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    Default Lot of codswallop

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    I can't comment on the Koran, as I am not an expert like yourself, and I wonder why you picked the Old Testament instead of the New Testament that explains and puts the Old Testament into perspective? You were close dating the Old Testament in terms of the history of the planet--the first five books of the Bible are dated back to about 1,250 B.C., around the time of Moses.

    As for slavery, at least the Jews HAD some guidelines for dealing with an institution that existed everywhere in the ancient world. You'd fare far better under Jewish guidelines than elsewhere where maybe they had no religion. The fact is, because Jews had guidelines for dealing with the institution of slavery cannot be interpreted to mean that God approved of slavery.

    Job had incestuous relations with his daughters. Really? I guess my Bible is out of date. One might suspect that you lack a certain amount of scholarship to be bandying about glib accusations about the scriptures. Anyway, to help you along, it was Lot who had sex with his daughters. They thought it would be right to preserve his seed, so they got him drunk and had sex with him. The writer of the story, possibly Moses, was simply recording history, not saying that God approved of incest. In fact, the record is clear that the Levitical code forbade incest.

    Too bad that you non-religious folks don't possess any written guidelines on which you base or record your morality, we religious deserve a little time poking fun at you. Truth is, when morals are relative, one might as well not have any morals at all for all the good it does.
    Yeah Aslan, thanks for helping me out with my temporary confusion. I always seem to get those 3-letter names mixed up: Job, Lot, Dog, God, Sin
    and so on. And yes, I could certainly use some bible scholarship if I am ever going to be accurate in describing it, let alone understanding it. But I just can't seem to settle for longer than 60 seconds when I open one.

    It just seems like everything I open at it's like, you know, god's angry, or it's a sin to take a pee or something. I think Monkey might have been partially correct when he suggested I am still fed up with being forced as a child to go every protestant Sunday and listen to that stuff about wandering Jews, Moses and Sin, while my pals were allowed to be kicking footballs around instead. Life can be so unfair!

    I have the same problem trying to read that other book. Hooboy! That stuff in there is even worse! And to think millions of children worldwide are being brainwashed with that is a depressing thought, as is the idea that it is "Allah's word, and Allah's will." Sound familiar?

    So it was Lot's daughters' faults that they had sex with him, because they got their old man drunk? (More bible 'proof' of how innately sinful women are, to go with the Eve nonsense?)

    Now last time I tried to have sex while drunk, I was not successful, in the days before viagra. But old Lot must have been quite a man, because not only does he overcome a drunken stupor, no viagra and the idea that his daughters seem to have never heard about the genetic dangers in conceiving from incest, but he manages to fertilize all 3 of them, apparently bang bang bang. Lot was a strikingly appropriate name for him...
    Dogma schmogma

  4. #49

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Job had incestuous relations with his daughters. Really? I guess my Bible is out of date.
    I think that was Noah. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
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    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
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    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
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  5. #50
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan
    Sorry, but I disagree. Weak-minded people lack discipline. Strong-minded people are disciplined.
    It is just a semantic difference. Maybe I should use another word to describe it. I will try to use the word irrational instead of weak-minded until I can find a better substitute.

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan
    Your entire argument is that reason alone is all that is needed and I answer that reason alone is not enough. It is not possible to comprehend the Infinite with a finite mind.
    I have no disagreement there. Humans have a very limited understanding of our world and it will always be that way. I just don’t think our limited knowledge should be a reason to revert to mythological ideas that were created thousands of years ago. I believe we should try to expand our knowledge instead of giving in to our ancestor’s superstitious beliefs. Instead of reaching the edge of reason and “leaping” off the cliff we should be building a bridge to extend our knowledge and understanding. I have no problem with people believing in spiritual ideas but to make decisions based on unsubstantiated and quite possibly inaccurate information is not wise especially when it affects many other peoples’ lives. Religion encourages people to do that and I believe it is unhealthy and dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan
    Our two famous non-religious leaders of the 20th century, Hitler and Stalin, based their decisions on human reasoning. Man's reason alone is, in your words, "a dangerous way to mandate the laws and behaviors of a nation." It's like a man-made "Martingale system, no matter how you tweak it it will never work."
    Yes they were two very dangerous people. They followed reason as far as they could but then took a leap of faith and used their personal beliefs to guide them. They made some very serious life-changing decisions based on their opinions. Basically they took a huge gamble and lost. A rational person would not want to take that kind of gamble especially with so many lives at stake. A rational person would not let themselves take action on such unconfirmed beliefs. They would realize the limitations of their knowledge and act accordingly. They might still believe in their opinions but they would not act on them without adequate validation. When you try to transcend reason you behave unreasonably.

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan
    It's just as easy to "reason" to fallacious, self-serving values as it is to distort Biblical truth. Non-religious people are just as given to arguing among themselves as religious people.
    The difference is that decisions based on actual truths instead of supposed truths can be verified. When someone distorts logic in order to support their beliefs it will be obvious to anyone who analyzes it. You can’t tell someone that 2+2=5 and expect everyone to agree with you because it can be proven to be false. But how do you argue with someone who says that God doesn’t want you to eat shellfish or pigs or shave your beard? Where is the reasoning behind those decisions? It is impossible to have a rational debate with somebody when they respond with opinions. It is impossible to show the fault with an opinion when it is not based on facts. Just because “valid reason can never disprove revealed truths” does not mean that they are correct. That is one of John Patrick’s famous lines.

    That is one of the main reasons why a logical system of thought prevails over a religious based system of thought. When it’s wrong, you can see it and you can know how to fix it. When someone is using it for self-serving purposes it is apparent and can be addressed. Religion offers no such liability.

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan
    Biblical beliefs are not personal beliefs, they are revealed truths.
    Then they should be able to be explained through reason. The religious people I have met have not been able to do this. The discussion always ends with them quoting the bible but not being able to explain the reasoning or facts behind it. To believe that something is a revealed truth but to not have proof of it means that it is still just an opinion. Perhaps it is a divine opinion but I do not make such distinctions among opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan
    As I explained above, a true understanding of the nature of the Bible would exclude ALL that does not speak to SPIRITUAL and MORAL truth. It's inspired, not dictated.
    That is another very slippery slope. How do you determine which texts do not follow the “nature” of the bible? How do you exclude the portions that do not condone the spirit of His intentions but retain all of the morally correct material? If it’s that easy why don’t we just rewrite the bible in order to avoid all the confusion? Should we just drop the Old Testament? Who decides? And what if they’re wrong? Since all humans are imperfect and everyone has a different version of the bible in their head, how can we establish which opinion is correct?

    We could argue this for another thousand years and never get an answer. It’s just further proof that the basis of religion is not strong enough to support itself. If it were based on reason it would be a simple matter to show validation for its concepts without requiring such huge leaps of faith to fill in the holes. This is another way that logical belief systems are stronger than spiritually based ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan
    If one's reason takes him to the point that he makes the leap of faith to believe in God and His inspired word, then it is not just opinions. Faith is based on following reason as far as it can take you. But while it does go beyond reason, it is never at odds with reason.
    But isn’t the very concept of faith at odds with the concept of reason? Wouldn’t a rational human want to avoid taking large risks in their life based on reasons that are unknown, unsubstantiated, unproven and possibly inaccurate? Faith may pick up where reason ends but it takes someone in the opposite direction. When something is rational it does not require faith. What you call a leap of faith I call a gamble.

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan
    A belief in the Catholic faith can never be a pretext for hate crimes. A DISTORTION of ANY belief, religious or OTHERWISE, can and usually IS a pretext for hate crimes. I don't know where this line of reason gets us.
    As you pointed out these beliefs are not exclusive to religious people. I would make the argument that all humans have at least a few irrational beliefs and more than a few unconfirmed opinions. A rational person will be able to tell the difference between facts and opinions, and between fantasy and reality. Most religions encourage the opposite. Most religions are a bizarre mix of morals and mythology. Students are encouraged to believe its truths and accept that the proof may come later. And even if the proof never comes they should continue to believe, to spread the word to other impressionable people and to punish those with differing opinions. That is not a system that breeds intellectual growth or rational thinking. That is why I believe it is dangerous and destructive to mankind. History has shown this.
    Last edited by Nazgul; January 7th, 2009 at 05:50 PM.
    Truth demands knowledge. Deceit demands faith.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    I think that was Noah. zg
    Another nation heard from. You guys need to get more familiar with the Bible. It was Ham's son you are referring to, who likely had sex with his mother and was cursed by Noah because of it (curse of Caanan). It's a pretty cloudy reference, but that is the likely meaning. The Bible never condones incest except in the case of it being necessary to populate the earth by marriage, i.e., Adam's sons and daughters had no other recourse. Later in Biblical history, there were legal proscriptions against marriage to close relatives. It was always considered wrong to have sexual relations with anyone outside of marriage, close relative or not.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post
    It is just a semantic difference. Maybe I should use another word to describe it. I will try to use the word irrational instead of weak-minded until I can find a better substitute.
    Reason leads to belief in Christ. The belief is neither weak-minded nor irrational. But you are entitled to your opinion.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  8. #53

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Reason leads to belief in Christ.
    More like fear of God, Death, and Devil leads to the embrace of the dominant cultural mythology,
    and the basis of hope for the survival of the illusionary independent ego-self. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post
    I have no disagreement there. Humans have a very limited understanding of our world and it will always be that way. I just don’t think our limited knowledge should be a reason to revert to mythological ideas that were created thousands of years ago. I believe we should try to expand our knowledge instead of giving in to our ancestor’s superstitious beliefs. Instead of reaching the edge of reason and “leaping” off the cliff we should be building a bridge to extend our knowledge and understanding. I have no problem with people believing in spiritual ideas but to make decisions based on unsubstantiated and quite possibly inaccurate information is not wise especially when it affects many other peoples’ lives. Religion encourages people to do that and I believe it is unhealthy and dangerous.
    I believe in the Catholic faith, and reject the notion that I believe in superstitious beliefs of my ancestors. Reason cannot go the distance to faith in Christ. It can only lead you to the point of faith. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

    Religion does not encourage people to make decisions based on unsubstantiated and possibly inaccurate information. It is reason that leads to faith in Christ Who in turn gives the guidelines needed for living holy lives. Once they have come to faith, people realize that what they have is truer that all the reason in the world, and understand that reason alone is blind. Reason alone cannot give you the same trustworthy guidelines because reason alone is fallible, limited, and often leads to inaccurate assessments. It is also quite susceptible to self-serving motives. Without God, people "deify" reason, but such reason is dark reason, which can never comprehend the light of truth. It is eminently more unhealthy that you can imagine.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  10. #55

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    It is reason that leads to faith in Christ
    Can't imagine... reason suggests that there may not have even been a historical Yeshua.

    So give us an example of how REASON led to belief in Jesus, please zg
    Credo quia absurdum , “I believe because it is absurd" --Tertullian

    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post

    Yes they were two very dangerous people. They followed reason as far as they could but then took a leap of faith and used their personal beliefs to guide them. They made some very serious life-changing decisions based on their opinions. Basically they took a huge gamble and lost. A rational person would not want to take that kind of gamble especially with so many lives at stake. A rational person would not let themselves take action on such unconfirmed beliefs. They would realize the limitations of their knowledge and act accordingly. They might still believe in their opinions but they would not act on them without adequate validation. When you try to transcend reason you behave unreasonably.
    Again, you place more stock in reason than it can ever deliver. You talk about opinions and personal beliefs as being different from reason, but I suggest that, absent religion, one's personal beliefs and opinions come largely from one's reason. What is reasonable to you is not to another. And not all reason can be validated.

    You talk about a rational person. Who is that? Is it someone who agrees with you on issues? How does one know who is the rational person? We all have our reasons for this or that. Often decisions must be made with limited information. Often decisions have a plethora of information but rational people interpret it in many different ways.

    Reason likes to think in relative terms, not absolutes. Relative morality is no morality at all. Dark human reason devoid of God leads to such reasoning as supports organizations like NAMBLA. Reason is good as far as it can go, but it is not a substitute for the commandments of God as revealed in the Bible, and especially the teaching incorporated in the New Testament. Mythology? Maybe to you, but not to me. Christ existed. His teachings and public life were documented. Numerous writings and traditions were passed down these past two thousand years, which testify to and amplify these teachings. My reason says it is not mythology. I believe enough validation exists to warrant belief in Christ. You should look into it.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  12. #57

    Default think about this

    95% of all statistics are made up.

    There's one for thought.

  13. #58
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    In order for world peace to exist, we must first learn from our differences.

    Unfortunately I feel, that the only way thats going to happen, is through a terrible price, for which we all must pay.

    Getting rid of money, is a good start.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post
    The difference is that decisions based on actual truths instead of supposed truths can be verified. When someone distorts logic in order to support their beliefs it will be obvious to anyone who analyzes it. You can’t tell someone that 2+2=5 and expect everyone to agree with you because it can be proven to be false. But how do you argue with someone who says that God doesn’t want you to eat shellfish or pigs or shave your beard? Where is the reasoning behind those decisions? It is impossible to have a rational debate with somebody when they respond with opinions. It is impossible to show the fault with an opinion when it is not based on facts. Just because “valid reason can never disprove revealed truths” does not mean that they are correct. That is one of John Patrick’s famous lines.
    I wish the right thing to do, the moral thing to do, were as easy as 2 + 2 = 5. Try that in issues like abortion, euthanasia, capital punishment, what constitutes a just war, the morality of homosexual behavior, torture in the context of saving lives, incest, polygamy, stem cell research, etc., etc. These issues cannot be validated. They can be argued. Reason can be piled high on both sides. They can be voted on. But in the end, it is sometimes one man or one vote that decides the course of action. I would rather have a true, practicing Catholic make decisions in any of these areas using both his reason and his religion-derived morality than the 10 most brilliant atheists in the world relying on their reasoning power alone.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post
    That is one of the main reasons why a logical system of thought prevails over a religious based system of thought. When it’s wrong, you can see it and you can know how to fix it. When someone is using it for self-serving purposes it is apparent and can be addressed. Religion offers no such liability.
    When reason is wrong, the reasoner can't always see it. I have seen people argue until they are blue in the face, but "a person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Wrong reason is not easy to see, especially when it's yours. Self-serving reason is sometimes easy to see by outsiders, but not by those who have a vested interest.

    Religion must always stand the test of rationality. True religion can never contradict true reason. Reason may not be able to attain to the same heights, but it will not contradict it. I can think of no act that I have ever performed based on my religion that I consider irrational. It may transcend validation by reason alone, but it does not contradict reason. there are countless super intelligent people who have religious beliefs. They would not accept a religion that defied reason, nor would I.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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