View Poll Results: What do you believe the future will bring in the long run? A world...

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  • where truth and justice prevail.

    4 14.29%
  • that is better, but still no permanent world peace.

    6 21.43%
  • that is essentially the same.

    6 21.43%
  • that is worse than ever.

    12 42.86%
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Thread: World Peace--Is It Possible?

  1. #316
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    Default Bush burnt

    Quote Originally Posted by shadroch View Post
    How would you want Her to communicate? Half the Party of God believes everything on CNN comes straight out of Moscow and most Liberals think Fox News pulls its stories right out of rushs posterior.
    They already tried the "walk like a man, my son "act and it got pretty negative reviews.
    Appearing as a burning bush is just too Old School for todays kids.
    Forget those dumb burning bushes. Whoever really cared about them anyway? Not even god, because She knew someone made that stuff up.

    If you study the Village People photo, you will see it is just what god is looking for, because it brings people together. There is a cowboy, some afro-Americans, a construction worker, a cop and a North American indian. That is a great start for the Great Healing of the Human Race. Later, some women, an Asian, a Scandanavian, a Kalahari bushman, a camel desert nomad and a Bernie Madoff lookalike could be added by god, when She finally gets it together and gets this thing up and running.
    Dogma schmogma

  2. #317
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    im still very optimist in achieving the world peace..i believe that peace comes out first to our own self..we should teach our children the good values and morals..so that when the time comes that they are all grown up they well educated and knows how to commit world peace..

  3. #318
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    Default Right on, brother

    Quote Originally Posted by ketch18 View Post
    im still very optimist in achieving the world peace..i believe that peace comes out first to our own self..we should teach our children the good values and morals..so that when the time comes that they are all grown up they well educated and knows how to commit world peace..
    Hi Ketch, nice message you wrote. Before you commit world peace mate, did you like my picture of the Village People?
    Last edited by Katweezel; February 24th, 2009 at 05:32 PM.
    Dogma schmogma

  4. #319
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ketch18 View Post
    im still very optimist in achieving the world peace..i believe that peace comes out first to our own self..we should teach our children the good values and morals..so that when the time comes that they are all grown up they well educated and knows how to commit world peace..
    This is a simple yet wise statement. It is up to us as humans to live by an acceptable moral standard. Yet the problem arises when one believes, for example, that the God of the bible has any relevance when it comes down to a moral standard to live by.

    The god of the bible is inferior when talking of what is real in the way of moral actions and ideals. For example I feel that any that advocate slavery is morally inferior. Any that advocate genocide, slaughter, infantcide, human and animal sacrifice is morally inferior. Someone who offers infinite punishment and rewards for finite crimes and deeds is morally inferior. Someone who creates a system knowing that the people are not going to live up to its standards, yet spends thousands of years punishing them for his own failures basically trying to fix his own mistakes, is morally inferior. Adam and Eve, banished from the garden, the great flood, the Tower of Babel, etc. There's failure after failure after failure until he comes up with the only loophole the "creator" of the universe can come up with. Instead of just forgiving everybody, or changing the rules, being all powerful this should be very easy, he comes up with the idea of a sacrifice.

    But is it really a sacrifice? Depending on your belief, you may believe that Jesus is God. In this sacrifice he comes to earth in human form and sacrifices it to alleviate all of the peoples sins. Of course death is only temporary and Jesus rises and ascends back up to heaven. Big deal. First off to think the blood of another can relieve you of sin would be a laughable thought if it wasn't so repulsive. I explained that in an earlier post how that is just a tradition from primitive man, where they believed they could pile all the sins of the tribe on a goat and then cast out into the desert to die, thus taking all the sins with it. This is where the term scapegoat originates. Secondly if you are gullible and naive enough to believe that the killing of one thing restores the goodness of another, the crucifixtion of Jesus was not all that amazing as he was afterall supernatural and his death was only that of a body that meant nothing. There was no sacrifice because nothing was really lost. God knew that Jesus was not gone forever, so to call that the ultimate and loving sacrifice is a crock of sh*t.

    You can cherry pick things from the bible to prove goodness and love exist in the bible as well. But that just means it is an imperfect book, about an imperfect god, that has good days and bad days, surprisingly to some, just like man. Its not a coincidence. Here's a moral test, you against god. If god where to come to you and order you to kill a young child. An innocent child not able to hurt a soul or even commit sin. If you knew it was really god would you do it? Don't give me any crap about how he wouldn't do such a thing either, he has in the past and this is based on what he has already proven capable of. Another example, if your children were to do something unspeakable like not love you, would you think it acceptable to lock them in the basement and torture them for eternity. Would that be an example of morallity? What if you had something you loved so much and there was something harming them and you had the power to destroy it but chose not to. Would you consider that moral behavior? That would be Satan vs. gods children, yet god sits by and watches instead of allowing them to live in his grace only. Dictatorships are never moral positions, thus the god of the bible is either immoral or incompetent. Either way there's nothing to worry about, its only a badly written fairytale. Be kind and loving to your children, teach them respect, how to give and receive it, and don't be afraid to think for yourself about what is right and wrong. That is the only chance for real peace.

  5. #320
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    Default Maz = 10/10

    There you go, Ace157. Maz has provided you with a classic piece which should get you a distinction, when you precis all those great points he makes, and submit it, later, at exam time. (Without a hint of plagiarise, of course!) Now this should be interesting as we watch the Refuters attempting to Refute... (That could be a new handle for that group; instead of The Revisionists.)
    Dogma schmogma

  6. #321
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    Default very good maz

    though i don't entirely agree with you, i certainly appreciate the difference in opinion and the thoughtfulness in your decision.

    in regards to your first paragraph might i suggest reading some of Dietrich Bonehoffer (not sure how to spell his name)? He wrote several letters from a concentration camp discussing how God is much more than a filler to our problems or a "god of the gaps."

    there is much more to Christ's crucifixion than the few days over which it took place. It is a big picture sort of thing "God so loved the world..." The destruction is not the complete picture of the sacrifice. Much more is at work where the reason it is a sacrifice is because (in Christianity) God created humans knowing full well that they would sin, the sacrifice comes from having created something that you love in unmeasurable amount and knowing it will hate you in every way possible and still sharing grace with that creation.

    you have chosen a very particular position for your third paragraph, you have placed yourself in the role of assuming the extent of punishment and whom should be punished. when is it right for one person to pass judgment on another or for us to say one action is less good or more evil or more worthy of a more sever punishment than any other? yes, the Bible is a very particular book that indeed has its flaws, to name a few the ENORMOUS time span it was written over, translating errors, scribal error, the multiple authors, the many cultures and continents it was written on.... nonetheless one can "cherry pick" through it both to find inspiration and contradictions

    there is a beautiful line in "V for Vendetta" where one of the characters is being arrested for owning a copy of the Koran and he states "do i have to be a Muslim to find its picture beautiful or its words inspiring?"
    i'm your huckleberry - Doc

  7. #322
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    Default Facts are... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ace157 View Post
    though i don't entirely agree with you, i certainly appreciate the difference in opinion and the thoughtfulness in your decision.

    in regards to your first paragraph might i suggest reading some of Dietrich Bonehoffer (not sure how to spell his name)? He wrote several letters from a concentration camp discussing how God is much more than a filler to our problems or a "god of the gaps."

    there is much more to Christ's crucifixion than the few days over which it took place. It is a big picture sort of thing "God so loved the world..." The destruction is not the complete picture of the sacrifice. Much more is at work where the reason it is a sacrifice is because (in Christianity) God created humans knowing full well that they would sin, the sacrifice comes from having created something that you love in unmeasurable amount and knowing it will hate you in every way possible and still sharing grace with that creation.

    you have chosen a very particular position for your third paragraph, you have placed yourself in the role of assuming the extent of punishment and whom should be punished. when is it right for one person to pass judgment on another or for us to say one action is less good or more evil or more worthy of a more sever punishment than any other? yes, the Bible is a very particular book that indeed has its flaws, to name a few the ENORMOUS time span it was written over, translating errors, scribal error, the multiple authors, the many cultures and continents it was written on.... nonetheless one can "cherry pick" through it both to find inspiration and contradictions

    there is a beautiful line in "V for Vendetta" where one of the characters is being arrested for owning a copy of the Koran and he states "do i have to be a Muslim to find its picture beautiful or its words inspiring?"


    Joseph Chilton Pearce, in his book, 'Bond of Power' wrote: "... No longer was there "The Father within" who does wonderful things, but Old Nobodaddy, as Blake called Him, nobody's father, a tyrant more ghastly than the worst of the old testament, since removed completely from the universe, remote and unavailable; whose "horror at our impurity" impelled him to engineer the murder of his "only begotten son" to appease his own wrath; who yet remained ready to toss us into an eternal hell-fire for our inherited, inevitable, and inescapable sin, unless His son somehow intervened. (And this bizarre illogical nightmare held the attention of some of the best minds of the West for nearly two millenia)..."

    Regarding this so-called sacrifice of his son by God, I would like to know some facts about the origin of the story. I hope someone may be able to supply those facts, as distinct from speculation and opinion and/or childhood beliefs in fairy tales.

    1 When did this story first appear in catholic writings? 2 Who first wrote it? 3 Was it revised, and if so, by whom, and how many times? 4 What is the entire, whole and full account of its appearance, acceptance and incorporation into the mainstream catholic teachings of long ago?
    Hopefully, a scholar may turn up with the indisputable, historical facts. Nobody need fear the truth, right?
    Dogma schmogma

  8. #323
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    Default

    1 When did this story first appear in catholic writings? 2 Who first wrote it? 3 Was it revised, and if so, by whom, and how many times? 4 What is the entire, whole and full account of its appearance, acceptance and incorporation into the mainstream catholic teachings of long ago?
    Hopefully, a scholar may turn up with the indisputable, historical facts. Nobody need fear the truth, right?
    i'll c what i can dig up, but it might take me a while, been busy the last couple days
    i'm your huckleberry - Doc

  9. #324

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post
    Regarding this so-called sacrifice of his son by God, I would like to know some facts about the origin of the story. I hope someone may be able to supply those facts, as distinct from speculation and opinion and/or childhood beliefs in fairy tales.

    1 When did this story first appear in catholic writings? 2 Who first wrote it? 3 Was it revised, and if so, by whom, and how many times? 4 What is the entire, whole and full account of its appearance, acceptance and incorporation into the mainstream catholic teachings of long ago?
    Hopefully, a scholar may turn up with the indisputable, historical facts. Nobody need fear the truth, right?
    There are not many religious topics that are more controversial than this.

    To many conservative Christians, the question is ridiculous; it is not even worth investigating. They view the gospels, and the rest of the Bible, as very different from ordinary books. They believe that the gospels are the inerrant, inspired Word of God. Thus, nothing in the gospels could have originated in myths from Pagan and other religions. The gospels describe Jesus' life, from his conception to ascension to Heaven, precisely as it unfolded circa 5 BCE to circa 30 CE. There certainly were beliefs about Egyptian, Greek, Roman, and other Pagan heroes, saviors and god-men circulating in 1st century CE Palestine. However, material in the gospels could not have come from those sources. God inspired Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in their writing, preventing them from making any errors. The incorporation of legends from Pagan and other religions would not have been possible.

    To many very liberal Christians and post-Christians, the question is definitely worth studying. Many non-Christian religions -- Pagan and others -- permeated the Mediterranean region during the 1st century CE. There were numerous male heroes, saviors and god-men within Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Hindu, and other pantheons of Gods whose lives had many points of similarities to Jesus. Of these, the Egyptian God Horus probably had life events attributed to him which were closest match to those of Jesus. Yet, Horus was worshipped in Egypt thousands of years before the first century CE when Jesus is believed to have been ministering in Palestine.

    In order to compete with those religions, Christianity would have had to describe Jesus in terms that matched or surpassed the local myths, stories and legends. The authors of the gospels may well have picked up themes from other sources and added them to their writings in order to make Christianity more credible to a largely Greek/Pagan world. By peeling away such foreign material, they might be able to get a clearer picture of what Jesus taught and how he lived. By stripping away these accretions that have become attached to the life, story and teachings of Jesus, they might get closer to the historical Jesus.They can better understand his mission, and learn from his teachings.

    SEE ALSO - Just a few of the OTHER "Saviors"
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
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    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
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  10. #325
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Katweezel View Post

    1 When did this story first appear in catholic writings? 2 Who first wrote it? 3 Was it revised, and if so, by whom, and how many times? 4 What is the entire, whole and full account of its appearance, acceptance and incorporation into the mainstream catholic teachings of long ago?
    Hopefully, a scholar may turn up with the indisputable, historical facts. Nobody need fear the truth, right?
    It doesn't take much scholarship to find that it was always a part of Catholic teaching from the earliest writings. The idea appears throughout Paul's letters, and in all the gospels. It is also prefigured throughout the Old Testament. It is a common theme. However, the Catholic faith is accustomed to false findings of devious intent. I'm sure you can find someone to dispute the obvious if you try, but then, you would not do that, would you, since you want the truth, right?
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  11. #326
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post

    In order to compete with those religions, Christianity would have had to describe Jesus in terms that matched or surpassed the local myths, stories and legends.
    Well, you can see it from the point of view that the Christians are trying to "compete" with those other religions, or you can see the other religions as an echo, or prefigurement, or an intuition, or a universal symbol of what is perfected in the Christian religion. The Christian religion is not myth. It is based on fact. But until a person is touched by the Spirit of God, it is difficult, if not impossible, to see and comprehend. Aslan
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  12. #327
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    Default Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    It doesn't take much scholarship to find that it was always a part of Catholic teaching from the earliest writings. The idea appears throughout Paul's letters, and in all the gospels. It is also prefigured throughout the Old Testament. It is a common theme. However, the Catholic faith is accustomed to false findings of devious intent. I'm sure you can find someone to dispute the obvious if you try, but then, you would not do that, would you, since you want the truth, right?
    We, of the Zen Zone have committed what's left of our lives (after Blackjack) to the Noble Cause of Mythbusting, however sacrosanct or untouchable any Myth may be. We have all signed off on the ZZ manifesto, which, (under threat of extreme rack of 14th century for 20 minutes) proscribes any devious intent. If I can get to the bottom of this BIG one, I may even go after Hindu's sacred cow.
    Dogma schmogma

  13. #328
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    Default Hail Zen Brother

    Historical saviors.
    Attis of Phrygia
    Dionysus/Bacchus
    Horus/Osiris of Egypt
    Krishna of India
    Mithra of Persia
    Zoroaster/Zarathustra
    Buddha
    Zengrifter,
    So just because all or most of these named above shared uncanny origin-similarities and story-similarities with those of Jesus, and long before he appeared, big deal. Can't you come up with any historically-truthful better stuff than that, which suggests a Huge Myth is still strongly operational? Frankly, I don't think anyone could!

    Once again you have presented circumstantial evidence which appears to make more than a strong case for the Mythbusters who frequent this small backwater of cyberspace. Last time you posted this link, it apparently did not find favor with the vatican, nor other bible-bashing christian religions. Things apparently just carried on, as usual. This time, I am mailing a copy to the pope, and to Utah, and to the JWs, the baptists, the anglicans, the pentes and the scientologists. (The scientologists are getting a copy, just in case a few of them are fed up with Hubbard's alien bullshit and are thinking of becoming christians.)

    zg, I am proposing a motion to the ZZ board that you receive an appropriate commendation for your peerless endeavours toward the exemplary Mythbusting achievements of the ZZ. I am also suggesting you receive the highest honor, which is that you may henceforth carry the name, SON OF ZEN, for all time.
    Last edited by Katweezel; February 27th, 2009 at 03:29 AM. Reason: error
    Dogma schmogma

  14. #329

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Well, you can see it from the point of view that the Christians are trying to "compete" with those other religions, or you can see the other religions as an echo, or prefigurement, or an intuition, or a universal symbol of what is perfected in the Christian religion. The Christian religion is not myth. It is based on fact. But until a person is touched by the Spirit of God, it is difficult, if not impossible, to see and comprehend. Aslan
    Certainly when that last Caesar supposedly found Jesus and became the first Pope, much purposeful mythological design was the intent -- I mean why else would the "savior's" supposed birthday be overlayed upon the Winter Solstice, for example?

    C'mon Brother Aslan, drink of the psychedelic eucharist and behold Da Light - 4 YOU R IT! zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  15. #330
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Certainly when that last Caesar supposedly found Jesus and became the first Pope, much purposeful mythological design was the intent -- I mean why else would the "savior's" supposed birthday be overlayed upon the Winter Solstice, for example?

    C'mon Brother Aslan, drink of the psychedelic eucharist and behold Da Light - 4 YOU R IT! zg
    The first Pope was Peter, an apostle of Christ.

    The church has always tried to work within the culture of its faithful. Look at it, zg, as substituting truth for falsity, meaningful holy days in place of mythological holidays. In so doing, it preserves the culture minus the falsity and myth.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

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