View Poll Results: What do you believe the future will bring in the long run? A world...

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  • where truth and justice prevail.

    4 14.29%
  • that is better, but still no permanent world peace.

    6 21.43%
  • that is essentially the same.

    6 21.43%
  • that is worse than ever.

    12 42.86%
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Thread: World Peace--Is It Possible?

  1. #151
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    Scary stuff, this Shatki! Yikes!
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
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    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  2. #152
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    Aslan it is clear your thoughts on religion and god is your opinion and not based on theology and what most scholars interpret the authors of the books that make up the bible to be. Thats fine if it makes your life better. But ignorance is bliss ring very true here. If you wish for enlightenment on what is true through actual theological and historical study, as opposed to the laymens rather clumsy analysis of what is gods word, let me know. It takes time and I do not waste my time feeding truth to those who do not wish to see. Let me know and class will begin as soon as you are seated.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAZ View Post
    Aslan it is clear your thoughts on religion and god is your opinion and not based on theology and what most scholars interpret the authors of the books that make up the bible to be.
    Forgive me for not putting much credence in what "most" scholars of the Bible might think, as if numbers were an indicator of truth. There is a saying that a half truth is like a half a rock, you can throw it twice as far. The other part is that I do not hold the Bible to be the final word on revelations. Early writers of the New Testament put their beliefs into writing as a supplement to their oral teaching. It is only when we draw upon both tradition-- non-Biblical writings, monuments, etc., which originated in oral teachings-- and Biblical writings, that we can come to the totality of Christian revelation.

    I find the erroneous doctrines they labor under (the beliefs they hold before their investigations and scholarly works as members of their particular denomination), and which form the basis from which they attempt to understand and clarify the scriptures, to invariably distort the true meaning of those scriptures and to only falsely amplify those doctrines they believed beforehand.

    Those who do happen to stumble upon the truth of their error sometimes abandon all belief in Christianity, unable through years of brainwashing to even begin to think the unthinkable, that is, that the Roman Catholic Church may in fact hold the truth that they have so studiously labored and failed to find. I have listened to at least one minister and theologian of another Christian denomination, I think he was Baptist (but it has been many years since I heard him speak at Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio), voice how despairingly he found that the scriptures kept leading him to the Catholic position in each and every case, so much so that it presented a monumental dilemma to him until after great anguish he converted and became a Catholic theologian to the utter disbelief and dismay of his family, friends and congregation.
    Last edited by aslan; January 17th, 2009 at 10:47 AM.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAZ View Post
    Aslan it is clear your thoughts on religion and god is your opinion and not based on theology and what most scholars interpret the authors of the books that make up the bible to be. Thats fine if it makes your life better. But ignorance is bliss ring very true here. If you wish for enlightenment on what is true through actual theological and historical study, as opposed to the laymens rather clumsy analysis of what is gods word, let me know. It takes time and I do not waste my time feeding truth to those who do not wish to see. Let me know and class will begin as soon as you are seated.

    It is true that my thoughts and views do not always reflect the scholarship and theological thinking of the Protestant denominations, but I think you will find it pretty much in line with the views and scholarship of St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St John Chrysostom, St Leo the Great, St. Thomas Aquinas, St Bernard of Clairvaux, St John of the Cross, St Teresa of Avila, St Francis de Sales, St Alphonsus Liguori, and the other doctors of the church (33 doctors in all), and the Catholic Catechism, which is a compendium of all Catholic doctrine regarding both faith and morals, and of course, the magisterium of the church, which is the Pope and the bishops acting in communion with him.

    Where my thoughts seem to be my own opinions and to not reflect these sources, you might point it out to me and I will do my best to explain either where I derived such thoughts, or why I come come to such opinions or conclusions, and if there is a conflict with the above sources I will try to reconcile or clarify that disagreement.

    I am not a theologian nor a scholar, and if you are, or if you wish to discuss the Catholic faith at such a level, I will try to find some Catholic counterpart with whom you can engage in such a higher level discussion. As you know quite well, one does not need to be a theologian or a Bible scholar to be an authentic Christian whose beliefs are based in the teachings and witness of Jesus Christ. Consider the poor and ignorant fishermen and others who were Jesus' first apostles and disciples.

    Anyhow, if you wish to display to your superior knowledge in the world of Christian thought, I should think we would find it quite entertaining and enlightening. Mind you that as a Catholic, I do not believe that the Bible is the only source or necessarily even the best source of God's revelation as do my Protestant brothers, so I do hope you will bring the Catholic Church's long and amply documented tradition into the discussion.

    You might also give us your credentials, your background, your current beliefs, the particular Christian tradition in which you studied, how far you rose in those pursuits, and what bones you have to pick with the Christian faith, especially the personal ones, and your relation to zg, on and off the net if such relationship exists. lol Well, you must admit, your challenge has all the earmarks of a conspiracy. lol Forgive my suspicious nature, but after all, this IS the ~~~Zen Zone~~~. (~~~ pronounced Whoooooo!)

    I for one am a humble Catholic with little formal education in theology, but with a fair grasp of the teachings of my faith. What I cannot answer at such a high level I can surely find someone who can, if not another person entirely to take up my end of it. Please do not become too esoteric in the discussion, as it may become too tedious and unrewarding to pursue. Keep it simple, Maz.

    Otherwise I will continue to plod along, clumsily at times, explaining my faith when called upon to do so, and defending it when feeling compelled to do so. Hopefully, the Holy Spirit will fill my clumsy words with spirit and truth so that they may accomplish His work, despite their humble and often ignorant origin. Sincerely, Aslan
    Last edited by aslan; January 17th, 2009 at 10:00 AM.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    .... I don't know what the apple stands for, maybe disobedience in general. ....
    knowledge of good and evil, wasn't it?
    best regards,
    mr fr0g MMOA honorary predator
    STRENGTH - HONOR - HEART
    that's my take on it your mileage may vary.
    for senior citizen fuzzy count click link:
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagefr0g View Post
    knowledge of good and evil, wasn't it?
    The tree was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I said apple but I meant it in the sense of eating the apple. Eating the apple represents disobedience for sure, but many theologians and lay people speculate as to its being a symbol of a particular sin. I'm sure you've heard some say that it has a sexual connotation for instance. I suppose that doing wrong gave them knowledge of good and evil, since before that they only knew good. Is that the sense in which you understand it?
    Last edited by aslan; January 17th, 2009 at 11:10 AM.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    The tree was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I said apple but I meant it in the sense of eating the apple.
    well yeah you did put something in the post about what the apple stood for or something like that. that's all i meant.

    Eating the apple represents disobedience for sure, but many theologians and lay people speculate as to its being a symbol of a particular sin. I'm sure you've heard some say that it has a sexual connotation for instance.
    uh huh sort of like the weazely Kat's story minus the it's ok to do slant.
    one i heard was like Eve suckled her own boobs maybe and enticed Adam to nurse her sort of thing, lol. so in that sense i guess, what Eve would be the tree of knowledge of good and evil? symbolical, what would that be essentially mankind leaning towards understanding of good and evil according to it's self as the source instead of God, the tree of life? heck i dunno, i just mainly let the story go at a literal thing and don't bother with the sexual connotation deal, myself. lol, what ever.
    the sexual intercourse connotation slant that Kat seems to have in his story, well it's interesting but me, it seems a stretch to relate it to the knowledge of good and evil thing. i mean, ok i guess you could say Adam's sperm ingested by Eve's body took in information from Eve's perspective. what information from the sex act did Adam receive and how would Eve have had the experience before having had sex with Adam? what ever, lol.
    maybe Adam got Eve pregnant before she nursed her self? i don't think women produce milk unless they are pregnant, right?
    then Adam was nursed by Eve.
    that way they are both the tree of knowledge of good and evil, sort of thing? takes two to tango, lol.
    I suppose that doing wrong gave them knowledge of good and evil, since before that they only knew good. Is that the sense in which you understand it?
    i think so, maybe ignorance is bliss and the essence of innocence.
    Last edited by sagefr0g; January 17th, 2009 at 12:20 PM.
    best regards,
    mr fr0g MMOA honorary predator
    STRENGTH - HONOR - HEART
    that's my take on it your mileage may vary.
    for senior citizen fuzzy count click link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrTiP4ZIUfI

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAZ View Post
    Aslan it is clear your thoughts on religion and god is your opinion and not based on theology and what most scholars interpret the authors of the books that make up the bible to be. Thats fine if it makes your life better. But ignorance is bliss ring very true here. If you wish for enlightenment on what is true through actual theological and historical study, as opposed to the laymens rather clumsy analysis of what is gods word, let me know. It takes time and I do not waste my time feeding truth to those who do not wish to see. Let me know and class will begin as soon as you are seated.
    Whatever your view is, I think it's pretty arrogant to say "all the scholars agree with me, so I'm right". Scholars don't agree on anything, even Born-Again Christian Evangelical scholars or Atheist scholars.

    I am worried for you that you may be closed to considering the possibility that your beliefs could be wrong.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagefr0g View Post
    well yeah you did put something in the post about what the apple stood for or something like that. that's all i meant.


    uh huh sort of like the weazely Kat's story minus the it's ok to do slant.
    one i heard was like Eve suckled her own boobs maybe and enticed Adam to nurse her sort of thing, lol. so in that sense i guess, what Eve would be the tree of knowledge of good and evil? symbolical, what would that be essentially mankind leaning towards understanding of good and evil according to it's self as the source instead of God, the tree of life? heck i dunno, i just mainly let the story go at a literal thing and don't bother with the sexual connotation deal, myself. lol, what ever.
    the sexual intercourse connotation slant that Kat seems to have in his story, well it's interesting but me, it seems a stretch to relate it to the knowledge of good and evil thing. i mean, ok i guess you could say Adam's sperm ingested by Eve's body took in information from Eve's perspective. what information from the sex act did Adam receive and how would Eve have had the experience before having had sex with Adam? what ever, lol.
    maybe Adam got Eve pregnant before she nursed her self? i don't think women produce milk unless they are pregnant, right?
    then Adam was nursed by Eve.
    that way they are both the tree of knowledge of good and evil, sort of thing? takes two to tango, lol.

    i think so, maybe ignorance is bliss and the essence of innocence.
    I don't know the meaning is a specific sense, but what I get out of it is that disobedience takes a person away from God's friendship in the sense of our spirit no longer being in communion with His Spirit. After all, God is Spirit, and the idea of being saved to me is our human spirit being reunited with God, with His Spirit, which is Who and What He Is.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    Whatever your view is, I think it's pretty arrogant to say "all the scholars agree with me, so I'm right". Scholars don't agree on anything, even Born-Again Christian Evangelical scholars or Atheist scholars.

    I am worried for you that you may be closed to considering the possibility that your beliefs could be wrong.
    First you must practice reading comprehension. I did not say that "all" scholars agree with me. I said what "most" agree on is not the generic teachings so commonly heard in the average parish communal conversation. As far as my arrogance, there is nothing so arrogant as a christian that will proclaim with the utmost certainity that their beliefs are right and all others are wrong. Whether they speak of atheism or other religions it does not matter. The first problem with this is even christians can't get together and agree on what is right and wrong, believable or not in there own religion. It does not stand well to be so arrogant in being right when others who agree in basic principle cannot agree on the truth of what is christian faith.

    Don't worry about me being wrong, I may be. Thats what its like to be rational and obey laws of reason and science. There is no 100% certainty, but there is levels of probability that come close to it.

    I have a tangent thought here relating to a current event. By now you have all seen the news about the plane crash landing in the Hudson river in NY and all passengers and crew aboard were all rescued without any deaths or serious injury. Who here thinks this to be a miracle? It is most definitely not. It was an amazing display of courage and skill, and all involved should be commended. But no laws of physics or nature were broken here. Thats what you need for a miracle to be miraculous. This scenario of plane crash is a part of training for pilots. You cannot practice miracles, you can practice skills needed to safely land a plane in distress. I find it disgraceful and repulsive that some survivors will give credit to god for saving their life. Really? So I guess your life is so much more precious then the hundreds of innocent people dying in other plane crashes? Maybe the god of Islam is stronger than the god of christianity as he was not able to stop the muslim terrorists from killing thousand of innocent people, most undoubtedly some faith of christian. Were those innocents murdered that day not as deserving of gods grace as those landing in the Hudson river? The typical answer here becomes that god works in mysterious ways, and or we are only human and do not know gods plan. Okay, if so, stop pretending then to irrefutably be able to follow his wishes. If gods will is a mystery then man should stop taking credit for gods desires. God has sent mixed messages to his people throughout time with no real evidence of regularity on what makes him tick. Think about this, I am curious as to how it will be rationalized. I'll be back soon to talk about religion from Genesis to Revelation if you want. This topic is an overview of much of what the bible is based on, thats why I felt I should bring it up.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAZ View Post
    First you must practice reading comprehension. I did not say that "all" scholars agree with me. I said what "most" agree on is not the generic teachings so commonly heard in the average parish communal conversation. As far as my arrogance, there is nothing so arrogant as a christian that will proclaim with the utmost certainity that their beliefs are right and all others are wrong. Whether they speak of atheism or other religions it does not matter. The first problem with this is even christians can't get together and agree on what is right and wrong, believable or not in there own religion. It does not stand well to be so arrogant in being right when others who agree in basic principle cannot agree on the truth of what is christian faith.

    Don't worry about me being wrong, I may be. Thats what its like to be rational and obey laws of reason and science. There is no 100% certainty, but there is levels of probability that come close to it.

    I have a tangent thought here relating to a current event. By now you have all seen the news about the plane crash landing in the Hudson river in NY and all passengers and crew aboard were all rescued without any deaths or serious injury. Who here thinks this to be a miracle? It is most definitely not. It was an amazing display of courage and skill, and all involved should be commended. But no laws of physics or nature were broken here. Thats what you need for a miracle to be miraculous. This scenario of plane crash is a part of training for pilots. You cannot practice miracles, you can practice skills needed to safely land a plane in distress. I find it disgraceful and repulsive that some survivors will give credit to god for saving their life. Really? So I guess your life is so much more precious then the hundreds of innocent people dying in other plane crashes? Maybe the god of Islam is stronger than the god of christianity as he was not able to stop the muslim terrorists from killing thousand of innocent people, most undoubtedly some faith of christian. Were those innocents murdered that day not as deserving of gods grace as those landing in the Hudson river? The typical answer here becomes that god works in mysterious ways, and or we are only human and do not know gods plan. Okay, if so, stop pretending then to irrefutably be able to follow his wishes. If gods will is a mystery then man should stop taking credit for gods desires. God has sent mixed messages to his people throughout time with no real evidence of regularity on what makes him tick. Think about this, I am curious as to how it will be rationalized. I'll be back soon to talk about religion from Genesis to Revelation if you want. This topic is an overview of much of what the bible is based on, thats why I felt I should bring it up.
    If your spiritual beliefs were wrong, would you want to know it?

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAZ View Post
    First you must practice reading comprehension. I did not say that "all" scholars agree with me. I said what "most" agree on is not the generic teachings so commonly heard in the average parish communal conversation. As far as my arrogance, there is nothing so arrogant as a christian that will proclaim with the utmost certainity that their beliefs are right and all others are wrong. Whether they speak of atheism or other religions it does not matter. The first problem with this is even christians can't get together and agree on what is right and wrong, believable or not in there own religion. It does not stand well to be so arrogant in being right when others who agree in basic principle cannot agree on the truth of what is christian faith.

    Don't worry about me being wrong, I may be. Thats what its like to be rational and obey laws of reason and science. There is no 100% certainty, but there is levels of probability that come close to it.

    I have a tangent thought here relating to a current event. By now you have all seen the news about the plane crash landing in the Hudson river in NY and all passengers and crew aboard were all rescued without any deaths or serious injury. Who here thinks this to be a miracle? It is most definitely not. It was an amazing display of courage and skill, and all involved should be commended. But no laws of physics or nature were broken here. Thats what you need for a miracle to be miraculous. This scenario of plane crash is a part of training for pilots. You cannot practice miracles, you can practice skills needed to safely land a plane in distress. I find it disgraceful and repulsive that some survivors will give credit to god for saving their life. Really? So I guess your life is so much more precious then the hundreds of innocent people dying in other plane crashes? Maybe the god of Islam is stronger than the god of christianity as he was not able to stop the muslim terrorists from killing thousand of innocent people, most undoubtedly some faith of christian. Were those innocents murdered that day not as deserving of gods grace as those landing in the Hudson river? The typical answer here becomes that god works in mysterious ways, and or we are only human and do not know gods plan. Okay, if so, stop pretending then to irrefutably be able to follow his wishes. If gods will is a mystery then man should stop taking credit for gods desires. God has sent mixed messages to his people throughout time with no real evidence of regularity on what makes him tick. Think about this, I am curious as to how it will be rationalized. I'll be back soon to talk about religion from Genesis to Revelation if you want. This topic is an overview of much of what the bible is based on, thats why I felt I should bring it up.
    thing is, maybe our definition of miracles is flawed. perhaps God's actions work within the laws of physics.
    why can't God choose to favor whom he wishes? goes back to the Caine and Able stuff.
    best regards,
    mr fr0g MMOA honorary predator
    STRENGTH - HONOR - HEART
    that's my take on it your mileage may vary.
    for senior citizen fuzzy count click link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrTiP4ZIUfI

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    Quote Originally Posted by sagefr0g View Post
    thing is, maybe our definition of miracles is flawed. perhaps God's actions work within the laws of physics.
    why can't God choose to favor whom he wishes? goes back to the Caine and Able stuff.
    Our definition of miracles is based on those alleged in the bible. Walking on water, raising the dead and resurrection, parting the seas, healing the blind, lepors, and other disease, turning water into wine, etc. Its quite clear what gods miracles are and they don't fit into the scientific realm. As far as god choosing who to favor, I agree he can do as he wishes about this. But it raises the question of why follow him if his whim of favor does not gaurantee his avid believers mercy of his wrath. If gods will is mystery to man, by definition we do not know what then it is to serve god.

    Sidenote to catholics; are there any devout catholics out there that know what the Crimen Sollicitationis decrees? Are there any out there that will defend it?

    Oh yeah moo, if my beliefs are wrong of course I'd want to know. But unlike most believers of religion, I have a broad understanding of both sides and have chosen the side weighed with the most evidence. One is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments or one isn't. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
    Last edited by MAZ; January 17th, 2009 at 04:17 PM.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAZ View Post
    Our definition of miracles is based on those alleged in the bible. Walking on water, raising the dead and resurrection, parting the seas, healing the blind, lepors, and other disease, turning water into wine, etc. Its quite clear what gods miracles are and they don't fit into the scientific realm. As far as god choosing who to favor, I agree he can do as he wishes about this. But it raises the question of why follow him if his whim of favor does not gaurantee his avid believers mercy of his wrath. If gods will is mystery to man, by definition we do not know what then it is to serve god.

    Sidenote to catholics; are there any devout catholics out there that know what the Crimen Sollicitationis decrees? Are there any out there that will defend it?

    Oh yeah moo, if my beliefs are wrong of course I'd want to know. But unlike most believers of religion, I have a broad understanding of both sides and have chosen the side weighed with the most evidence. One is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments or one isn't. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
    I checked Wikipedia, what is your take on the decree?

    It appears to put a 30 day statute of limitations for "Church" trials with all remaining confidential, concerning sex abuse. Just my brief take. O yeah, if you do not report it within the 30 days you are excommunicated



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    Quote Originally Posted by sagefr0g View Post
    thing is, maybe our definition of miracles is flawed. perhaps God's actions work within the laws of physics.
    why can't God choose to favor whom he wishes? goes back to the Caine and Able stuff.
    god does favor who he wishes. Didn't you read the bible? He favors Jews, men and Israel.
    Dogma schmogma

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