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Thread: THE Most Dangerous Cult

  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by MEDITANK View Post
    Well put and very well said. We all know that Jesus is coming back and He won't be too happy in what He sees. But things are going to have to get alot worse than they already are.
    I assume that you know that Yeshua (Isa) is the returning messiah of Islam?
    Do most Christians know this? Does John Hagee? zg
    Last edited by zengrifter; August 16th, 2007 at 02:48 PM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    I assume that you know that Yeshua (Isa) is the returning messiah of Islam?
    Do most Christians know this? Does John Hagee? zg
    That is false. Muslims believe that Jesus was NOT born of a virgin and is NOT the Son of God. Muslims only believe in allah kaballah from La Jollah.

    Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.


    John 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he].

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by MEDITANK View Post
    Originally Posted by zengrifter
    I assume that you know that Yeshua (Isa) is the returning messiah of Islam?
    Do most Christians know this? Does John Hagee? zg
    ================================================== ================
    MEDITANK: That is false. Muslims believe that Jesus was NOT born of a virgin and is NOT the Son of God.
    Muslims only believe in allah kaballah from La Jollah.
    Muslims may differ in their appreciation of Yeshua, but clearly they have reverence for Him - their Koran respects Him and Mohammad respected Him and Muslims look for His return as Messiah (ie, messenger) of Allah (ie, God).

    Therefore Muslims have more respect for Isa than you show for their name of God in your response.

    There would appear to be more similarity than difference between these two UNENLIGHTENED MYTHOLOGIES. zg
    Last edited by zengrifter; August 17th, 2007 at 11:58 PM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Gee, you really make God sound appealing when you describe Him like that. zg
    Would you rather have a totally merciful God who permits all hell to break loose without fear of retribution? It's the classic balance between mercy and justice in a perfect being (ie, God).
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Would you rather have a totally merciful God who permits all hell to break loose without fear of retribution? It's the classic balance between mercy and justice in a perfect being (ie, God).
    Not a perfect being, rather, the reflection of your own mis-identified ego-mind illusion.

    You have made God in your image. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Not a perfect being, rather, the reflection of your own mis-identified ego-mind illusion.

    You have made God in your image. zg
    Really? Which attribute of God is inappropriate? Mercy? Or Justness? Or does your (G)(g)od not have such attributes?

    I have not made God in my image...He has revealed Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ ("He who sees me sees the Father"). Christianity is about "revealed" truth, not speculative or imagined truth. It is also about "experienced" truth, which those who have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit can attest to. Jesus has not been successfully distorted by men, no...the Spirit has seen to it that the truth of Jesus and the practice of worship He taught is protected by the Spirit through His Church, similar to how He kept the Old Testament, the worship of Yahweh, and the practice of Judaism protected by the Jews. Could God permit some to experience His Spirit without a knowledge of Jesus Christ? Of course He can. They might even ascribe the term "Consciousness" to that experience. Hopefully that is what certain Eastern and other believers are experiencing. The fact would still remain that this experience of the Spirit is made possible only because of Christ's death on the cross, which allowed the release of the Paraclete, the Spirit, whether such is acknowledged or not does not matter. Unfortunately, those who do not come to a full knowledge of God, including knowledge of Jesus Christ and much, much more handed down through His Church, cannot experience the fullness and richness of the God they have found, at least not in this lifetime. Hopefully, we are both experiencing communion with the very same God. My only fear for you is that you may be experiencing the illusions of a deceiving spirit, although I would never be so presumptious as to state that this is the case. My sincere hope is that we are both worshiping the same God through different venues.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    I have not made God in my image...He has revealed Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ ("He who sees me sees the Father"). Christianity is about "revealed" truth, not speculative or imagined truth. .............. My sincere hope is that we are both worshiping the same God through different venues.
    If God was revealed to you through Jesus, I'm sure that we would love you to describe to us the nature and experience of this God-revelation of yours.

    As for "the same God" - there is ONLY ONE - but why do you describe God as "Him"? Do you really believe that God is male and has a penis? zg
    Last edited by zengrifter; August 19th, 2007 at 09:11 PM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  8. #23
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    [QUOTE=zengrifter;48545] If God was revealed to you through Jesus, I'm sure that we would love you to describe to us the nature and experience of this God-revelation of yours.[/QUOTE

    Jesus Himself is the revelation of God, since He is God made flesh. Jesus has both the nature of God and the nature of man.


    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    As for "the same God" - there is ONLY ONE - but why do you describe God as "Him"? Do you really believe that God is male and has a penis? zg
    I say "same God" to mean that if the God you worship is not the same as the God I worship, it is my opinion that your god is a false god, and really not God at all. Is that clearer?

    Mr. zg, you never fail to amaze me. "God created man in his own image . . . male and female he created them." [Emphasis added.] God is a spirit. Spirits have no physical body and therefore no gender. Jesus referred to the first person of the Trinity as His Father. It seems to me that Jesus was describing the role of God and the nature of His relationship with God (the first person of the Trinity), not His gender. Here's a couple of links that discuss God as Father.

    http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodic...ug99/God2.html
    http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2167

    Mark Brumley writes:
    When we call God Father, we use both metaphor and analogy. We liken God to a human father by metaphor, without suggesting that God possesses certain traits inherent in human fatherhood—male gender, for example. We speak of God as Father by analogy because, while God is not male, He really possesses certain other characteristics of human fathers, although He possesses these in a different way (analogously)—without creaturely limitations. (See first link above.)
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  9. #24

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    Originally Posted by aslan
    I have not made God in my image...He has revealed Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ ("He who sees me sees the Father").
    I thought you were referring to a personal revelation of Isa, not just your Bible lesson.

    And speaking of Bible lessons, they are not entirely well-received here when they are presented as infallible. Especially considering how bastardized the whole thing is.

    Quote Originally Posted by MEDITANK
    Muslims believe that Jesus was NOT born of a virgin...
    Au contrare, mon frer. See bold-underlined below. zg
    Islamic views of Jesus

    In Islam, Jesus (known as Isa in Arabic, Arabic: عيسى), is considered one of God's most-beloved and important prophets and the Messiah.[90] He is one of five messengers (rusul), and one of the five "Resolute" prophets. The Hadith states that Jesus will return to the world in the flesh following Imam Mahdi to defeat the Dajjal (an Antichrist-like figure, translated as "Deceiver"),[91]...... As in the Christian nativity accounts, the 7th-century Qur'an holds that Jesus was born without a biological father to the virgin Mary, by the will of God (in Arabic, Allah). He is referred to as Isa ibn Maryam (English: Jesus son of Mary), a matronymic, as he had no biological father.[95] In Muslim traditions, Jesus lived a perfect life of nonviolence, showing kindness to humans and animals (similar to the other Islamic prophets), without material possessions, and abstaining from sin.[96] Islamic belief also holds that Jesus could perform miracles, but only by the will of God.[97]

    --------------------
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    I thought you were referring to a personal revelation of Isa, not just your Bible lesson.

    And speaking of Bible lessons, they are not entirely well-received here when they are presented as infallible. Especially considering how bastardized the whole thing is.
    Likewise your offerings. And likewise your discoutesy and presumptiousness when it comes to degrading others' beliefs as "Bible lessons," as if no thought or independent effort went into any belief other than your own. And your opinion of the "bastardization" of the whole thing is just that, YOUR OPINION, and those of your ilk. Your arrogance is exceeded only by your lack of manners, which in turn is exceeded only by your lack of any real knowledge about anything other than card counting. I believe you have revealed too much of yourself, zg. Your quest for truth is phony and deliberately and without honest intent disparages all conventional wisdom. Whatever your real gripe with the "establishment," if you had spent onehalf of your effort to tear it down honestly seeking whether there was any truth to it, you would already be a convert to Christianity; however, emotionally blinded to the truth in which you were probably rasied, your thrash about seeking the destruction of anything and anybody who holds to it. I hope you find the peace you are looking for, because the evidence of it is sadly lacking from all of your discourses here in the Zen Zone.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  11. #26
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    PS - My beliefs are simply my beliefs. Any interpretation on your part that I am speaking infallibly is simply incorrect. I only speak what I believe. You should be able to handle that, even in the Zen Zone.
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    Likewise your offerings. And likewise your discoutesy and presumptiousness when it comes to degrading others' beliefs as "Bible lessons," as if no thought or independent effort went into any belief other than your own. And your opinion of the "bastardization" of the whole thing is just that, YOUR OPINION, and those of your ilk.
    The bastardization/manipulation/tampering of the Bible is hardly opinion. And as for the basis of your belief, which appears to be without any personal revelation and based soley on Bible lessons and the persuasiveness of various church leaders and enculturated imprinting since childhood: Credo quia absurdum, "I believe because it is absurd." zg
    Last edited by zengrifter; August 20th, 2007 at 12:10 PM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  13. #28
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    SHOW ME EXACTLY WHERE IN THE QURAN ZG. Not someone else interpretation, spin or heresay. Muslims believe in the Quran, so please show me exactly where it says that Jesus was born of a virgin. This is not a trick question.

    PS: Wanna buy a cheap rolex?

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by MEDITANK View Post
    SHOW ME EXACTLY WHERE IN THE QURAN ZG. Muslims believe in the Quran, so please show me exactly where it says that Jesus was born of a virgin. This is not a trick question.
    How about these - [21:91], [3:45], [19:21], [19:35]
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
    -----------------------------------------
    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
    "Is everything a conspiracy? No, just the important stuff." ZG

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    The bastardization/manipulation/tampering of the Bible is hardly opinion.
    Yes it is an opinion, and it's an opinion based on your blind faith. I've tried to discuss this with you, but you're not interested. If you did real research into the origins of the bible, you would have discovered that it is well supported.

    The bible is so well supported by manuscript evidence, agreement with the archaeological record, and both friendly and hostile accounts, that to call the vailidity of the bible into question would cause one to have to question the whole record of ancient history.

    We have thousands of existing manuscripts of the New Testament, in Greek and in translation, some from within decades of the writings themselves. We have so many quotations of the bible that, if we didn't have a single manuscript, we could still reconstruct 95% of the text just from quotations in letters by the early church fathers.

    If you want to say that the bible has been bastardized; that's fine. But you need to then have the intellectual integrity to say that any ancient document that has less support than the bible also has been bastardized, and is not trustworthy. And that would mean that you would have to say that there are NO accurate records of ANY event prior to the modern era, because no other ancient document has anything approaching the support that the bible has. So which is it?

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