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    Default 9/11 third tower mystery 'solved'

    By Mike Rudin
    BBC, Conspiracy Files


    The final mystery of 9/11 will soon be solved, according to US experts investigating the collapse of the third tower at the World Trade Center.

    The 47-storey third tower, known as Tower Seven, collapsed seven hours after the twin towers.

    Investigators are expected to say ordinary fires on several different floors caused the collapse.

    Conspiracy theorists have argued that the third tower was brought down in a controlled demolition.


    MORE: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7485331.stm

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Gekko View Post
    The final mystery of 9/11 will soon be solved, according to US experts investigating the collapse of the third tower at the World Trade Center.
    By NIST?? Thats like relying on Sandia to tell us that "DU is safe" zg
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  3. #3

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    IMHO fire, heat, and structural steel do not mix. Add water to the mix and any hardend steel member such as bolts that been exposed to high heat will shatter like glass.

    There is no conspiricy here, just simple math with a touch of chemistry and physics.

    Fire softens steel=structural weakening
    weight of floors at 4 million pounds ea + structural weakening = movement of structure.
    movement+weight+gravity+the earth's centrifugal force= devastation

    WoW that looks like a new BJ RoR formula.

    As an eye witness to the collapse of the towers from just 2 miles away on that perfectly clear day, it was a miracle the loss was not 100 times greater.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjcount View Post
    IMHO fire, heat, and structural steel do not mix. Add water to the mix and any hardend steel member such as bolts that been exposed to high heat will shatter like glass.

    There is no conspiricy here, just simple math with a touch of chemistry and physics.

    Fire softens steel=structural weakening
    weight of floors at 4 million pounds ea + structural weakening = movement of structure.
    movement+weight+gravity+the earth's centrifugal force= devastation

    WoW that looks like a new BJ RoR formula.

    As an eye witness to the collapse of the towers from just 2 miles away on that perfectly clear day, it was a miracle the loss was not 100 times greater.
    At least a couple hundred scientists, engineers and architects who have looked closely at this will disagree with you. Fire doesn't cause a steel skyscraper to collapse at near freefall speed directly into its own footprint. WTC-7 is the smoking gun of 9/11. zg
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    At least a couple hundred scientists, engineers and architects who have looked closely at this will disagree with you. Fire doesn't cause a steel skyscraper to collapse at near freefall speed directly into its own footprint. WTC-7 is the smoking gun of 9/11. zg
    Then I have to disagree with you, fire brought down the WTC towers. IMO The intense heat from the burning jet fuel weakened the steel columns, girders, etc.. When the columns could now longer support the weight of the structure above it came straight down upon itself. The momentum was too great for the lower structure to support so one floor after another kept stacking up. One of the laws of physics, an object in motion stays in motion until another force acts upon it and only mother earth could stop it. If you watched in horror as the WTC buildings came down, it was over fast. If you guestimate 1200' free falling at what is it 32'/sec squared, how long did it take for the towers to come down? A minute maybe 2, of course include the delay time initially as each floor slowly gave way until too many were dropping at once.

    But then again a second idea which comes to mind in that for National Security, we stock piled a huge cache of weapons in the basement of WTC-7 and when they ignited either intentionally or by accident, it knocked the legs out from under the building causing it to implode.

    This will always be a heated debate for years to come.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjcount View Post
    Then I have to disagree with you, fire brought down the WTC towers. IMO The intense heat from the burning jet fuel weakened the steel columns, girders, etc.. When the columns could now longer support the weight of the structure above it came straight down upon itself. The momentum was too great for the lower structure to support so one floor after another kept stacking up. One of the laws of physics, an object in motion stays in motion until another force acts upon it and only mother earth could stop it. If you watched in horror as the WTC buildings came down, it was over fast. If you guestimate 1200' free falling at what is it 32'/sec squared, how long did it take for the towers to come down? A minute maybe 2, of course include the delay time initially as each floor slowly gave way until too many were dropping at once.
    Holy cow!!! YOU say that you watched it??? Then you give a suppossed personal opinion that mimicks the official line!!!
    An official line that was released within hours. Then you say that it took 1-2 MINUTES for each collapse!!!??? zg

    Ps - This thread was about WTC-7 - the third skyscraper collapse. Did you even know about WTC-7?

    --------------
    See Also (ZEN ZONE) -
    http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/06/341238.shtml?discuss
    Last edited by zengrifter; July 11th, 2008 at 01:50 PM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    At least a couple hundred scientists, engineers and architects who have looked closely at this will disagree with you. Fire doesn't cause a steel skyscraper to collapse at near freefall speed directly into its own footprint. WTC-7 is the smoking gun of 9/11. zg
    It's already been proven conclusively that it did not fall at anywhere near freefall speed. If WTC-7 is the smoking gun, then it's the smoking gun that busts all the 911 conspiracy theories. Name:  busted.gif
Views: 61
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    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjcount View Post
    IMHO fire, heat, and structural steel do not mix. Add water to the mix and any hardend steel member such as bolts that been exposed to high heat will shatter like glass.

    There is no conspiricy here, just simple math with a touch of chemistry and physics.

    Fire softens steel=structural weakening
    weight of floors at 4 million pounds ea + structural weakening = movement of structure.
    movement+weight+gravity+the earth's centrifugal force= devastation

    WoW that looks like a new BJ RoR formula.

    As an eye witness to the collapse of the towers from just 2 miles away on that perfectly clear day, it was a miracle the loss was not 100 times greater.
    You risk banishment from the Zen Zone with your theories based on facts and science. Just thought I'd warn you. Straighten up, man!
    Name:  wtc7..jpg
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    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by aslan View Post
    You risk banishment from the Zen Zone with your theories based on facts and science.
    Its not fair to him to tell him he spoke facts or science - he said he was an observer and that each tower took 1-2min to collapse, when in FACT each of the twin towers took under 15-sec. Thats a pretty big discrepancie for for a supposed observer with opinions.

    See para# 2 below underlined. zg
    ----------------------
    Maintaining the Official Story in the Face of Glaring Contradictions

    Ensuring the success of the official story of 9/11/01 despite the long sequence of highly improbable events it supposes required that people not pay too much attention to the details. This would be ensured by the "shock and awe" of the attack itself combined with an intense propaganda campaign to sell the official story. Ironically, the vast majority of those who created and promoted that propaganda probably did so innocently, never questioning the official version of events. The idea that the entire attack was an inside job was simply too unthinkable for most Americans to consider.

    The use of disinformation and diversion to manipulate public opinion is a highly developed art. It is well understood not only by psychological operations experts in the national security establishment, but also by marketing and public relations wizards. With the engineering of public reaction to September 11, disinformation has been used with a sophistication and depth that is historically unprecedented. A key tool in this modern form of psychological warfare is the "meme" -- an idea that acts like an infectious agent to spread itself through a population. Through careful construction of memes, the perpetrators could depend on others to unwittingly promote their cover story and conceal the truth. Their disinformation strategy was twofold. First, they would sell the official story to the masses through the compliant mass media, relying on people's desire to believe the official story. Second, they would seed specious ideas in the community of "9/11 skeptics" in order to distract and discredit them.

    The Official Story of September 11, and Its Apologists

    On the day of the attack, details about the alleged perpetrators emerged with a rapidity that is remarkable given the assertions by high-ranking administration officials that no one had ever considered that an attacker could fly planes into buildings. Within hours the identities of several of the alleged hijackers were known, and Osama bin Laden was being presented as the prime suspect. Within three days the FBI published the identities of all the alleged hijackers. It was being presented as an open-and-shut case.

    Academics helped to explain the collapses of the Twin Towers in articles in respected publications. Just two days after the attack, a scientific paper purported to fully explain the unprecedented engineering failures using "elastic dynamic analysis." "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? - Simple Analysis" was published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics ASCE on 9/13/01. Peer review of this paper and of other theories volunteering to explain the collapses was conspicuously absent.

    The mass media were consistent in avoiding asking the most obvious questions. Why did the air defense network fail to respond? Why did Flight 77 target the recently-fortified, mostly empty portion of the Pentagon? Why was the Ground Zero steel removed and destroyed as fast as possible? The media shirked their public service obligation of acting as watchdogs of the government, and instead became cheerleaders for the administration's war plans for central Asia.

    The vast body of print reportage about September 11 attack is notable for an abundance of contradictions. The timelines in the Complete 9-11 Timeline series reveal numerous inconsistencies, such as between reported times of events. These discrepancies, combined with the lack of evidence, discourage investigation of facts of the attack. Meanwhile, the impending attack on Afghanistan, the alleged Islam-terror link, and "homeland security" got the attention.

    This section examines just a few of the elements of the official story of September 11 with a skeptical view and attention to contradictions.
    • Red Flags: People are able to accept theories blessed by government and mainstream media, despite inconsistencies and long series of improbable coincidences.
    • Cover Stories: The top four in command of our defense go about routine appointments for an hour as the attack unfolds.
    • Experts on Parade: Experts "explain" the collapses of the World Trade Center buildings.
    Disinformation Targeting the Skeptics

    Disinformation aimed at skeptics of the official story is more subtle than the simple promotion of that story to the masses. It may consist of ideas with no basis in evidence packaged as shocking new findings that supposedly prove the involvement of insiders. Its effect is to discredit the larger body of 9/11 research through guilt by association with its sensational and unscientific approach. An example is the idea that Twin Towers were not hit by Flights 11 or 175 but rather by completely different objects, such as military planes with missile-firing pods. Since 9-11 Research does not provide analysis of such disinformation, we recommend the disinformation section of 911review.com.
    Last edited by zengrifter; July 12th, 2008 at 12:28 AM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
    .....................The Zengrifter Interview (PDF) |
    The Zengrifter / James Grosjean Reputation Debate
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    “Truth, like gold, is obtained not by growth, but by washing away all that is not gold.” — Leo Tolstoy........
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Its not fair to him to tell him he spoke facts or science - he said he was an observer and that each tower took 1-2min to collapse, when in FACT each of the twin towers took under 15-sec. Thats a pretty big discrepancie for for a supposed observer with opinions.
    Actually, it's been proven that each tower took more than 15 sec to fall (9 sec being free fall). Don't forget that the center core did not fall with the outside perimeter. Depends on what you're measuring. Read all about the debunking of the free fall theory and its phony evidence. http://debunking911.com/freefall.htm
    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 -8/23/10
    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,
    but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

    “It takes a very long time to become young.” Pablo Picasso

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    By NIST?? Thats like relying on Sandia to tell us that "DU is safe" zg
    Nor are writers for BBC to be trusted. zgAnd this just in -

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------



    No BBC, WTC 7 Did Not Collapse “Due To Fire” & The Final 9/11 Mystery Is Not Solved

    Prison Planet
    July 6, 2008

    Sunday, July 6, 2008

    “The building collapsed due to fire”

    I’m still waiting to see a shred of evidence to support this theory. Just “saying” that the building collapsed due to fire is not evidence or proof that it collapsed due to fire. You can bet that NIST won’t bother to explain this away:

    When the hit piece comes out, this is a critical piece of evidence that NIST (I am assuming) will ignore in their report: “Although virtually all of the structural steel from the Twin Towers and Building 7 was removed and destroyed, preventing forensic analysis, FEMA’s volunteer investigators did manage to perform “limited metallurgical examination” of some of the steel before it was recycled. Their observations, including numerous micrographs, are recorded in Appendix C of the WTC Building Performance Study. Prior to the release of FEMA’s report, a fire protection engineer and two science professors published a brief report in JOM disclosing some of this evidence.

    The results of the examination are striking. They reveal a phenomenon never before observed in building fires: eutectic reactions, which caused “intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.” The New York Times described this as “perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation. 2 WPI provides a graphic summary of the phenomenon. A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges–which are curled like a paper scroll–have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes–some larger than a silver dollar–let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending–but not holes.

    FEMA’s investigators inferred that a “liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur” formed during a “hot corrosion attack on the steel.” The eutectic mixture (having the elements in such proportion as to have the lowest possible melting point) penetrated the steel down grain boundaries, making it “susceptible to erosion.” …The “deep mystery” of the melted steel may be yielding its secrets to investigators not beholden to the federal government.

    Professor Steven Jones has pointed out that the severe corrosion, intergranular melting, and abundance of sulfur are consistent with the theory of thermite arson.

    MORE- http://www.prisonplanet.com/no-bbc-w...ot-solved.html
    Last edited by zengrifter; July 11th, 2008 at 05:14 PM.
    "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on."
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    The only reason the BBC reported that it had collapsed, as the reason the poor lady was talking about it with it just over her shoulder was because of an inaccurate source in the US...I forget what it was called.

    After watching that fool on Loose Change for just a short time I soon became bored with him, seriously he seemed like typical guy who would LOVE their to be a conspiracy and will look at any anomaly and call it a conspiracy. Whenever anything is over analysed there are always anomalous results. For example when Larry Silverstein said the word 'pull' that seems to only mean one thing in so many minds, it could mean pull the firefighters from the building, pull anything but if you keep on going you end up at 'pull' = demolition...jackpot..that supports our 'Conspiracy' that'll do nice. He seemed so convinced by his own documentary and its content that interviews with him since, show him unable to accept ANY other explanation, he just cant accept it. His own judgment has become clouded by his lust for a conspiracy.

    I'm a Civil and Structural Engineer, I've seen this discussed many many times...and very importantly for WTC7..why are there no remains of ANY form of demolition equipment in the wreckage? Demolition experts seem to conflict on the WTC7 a lot. Because of the way it fell it is automatically assumed that it was done professionally, OK I can appreciate that the way it falls is very similar to demolition however the fact that there are no remains of charges..which there would be present (approx 25cm initially) I cannot buy it. I suppose the same is with WTC7 as with the first two to go, it only needs one floor to collapse and the rest is pretty sure going to fall down.

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter
    Never in history had ANY steel skyscraper collapsed due to fire - other fires burned hotter and longer.
    Even if this is the case that doesn't really matter, its not entirely down to the fire, what also needs to be considered is which columns have failed and can the ones intact keep withstanding. The fire plus failed columns will lead to ULT. Failure.

    I bet 'Minoru Yamasaki' the architect and the engineers wished they had opted for bricks surrounding their columns just like in the Empire State Building rather than some new technology 'spray-on' flame retarder.

    Hmmm a conspiracy, I'm not buying it. Perfect timing to increase the anger against the East yes, and I'd say jumping on that bandwagon worked but I remain to be convinced of any form of conspiracy here. I take it as a horrendous and awful tragedy.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by sicharlton View Post
    The only reason the BBC reported that it had collapsed, as the reason the poor lady was talking about it with it just over her shoulder was because of an inaccurate source in the US...I forget what it was called.
    WHO would have known 20-min earlier?
    I'm a Civil and Structural Engineer...very importantly for WTC7..why are there no remains of ANY form of demolition equipment in the wreckage? ... Demolition experts seem to conflict on the WTC7 a lot. ... Because of the way it fell it is automatically assumed that it was done professionally, OK I can appreciate that the way it falls is very similar to demolition however the fact that there are no remains of charges..which there would be present ... it only needs one floor to collapse and the rest is pretty sure going to fall down.
    You say there is "no demolition [evidence] of charges", BUT there IS. There IS evidence of THERMATE and other substances and phenomenah that IS consistent with CD. Other than the chemical and other evidence that was discovered, don't forget that all wreckage was scooped and hauled in violation of ALL local, state, and federal CRIME SCENE laws and protocol.

    Your last sentence strikes me as exceptionally odd for a "structural engineer." EVEN IF your postulate was correct - "only needs one floor to collapse and the whole building goes" - IT WOULD NOT EXPLAIN the perfect footprint collapse at near freefall, evidencing that the support had instantly disinegrated. zg
    Last edited by zengrifter; July 11th, 2008 at 10:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    You say there is "no demolition [evidence] of charges", BUT there IS. There IS evidence of THERMATE and other substances and phenomenah that IS consistent with CD. Other than the chemical and other evidence that was discovered, don't forget that all wreckage was scooped and hauled in violation of ALL local, state, and federal CRIME SCENE laws and protocol.

    Your last sentence strikes me as exceptionally odd for a "structural engineer." EVEN IF your postulate was correct - "only needs one floor to collapse and the whole building goes" - IT WOULD NOT EXPLAIN the perfect footprint collapse at near freefall, evidencing that the support had instantly disinegrated. zg

    The thermite theory has been thoroughly debunked.
    See Rethinking Thermite
    http://debunking911.com/thermite.htm

    The towers did not fall at or below free fall speeds…
    http://debunking911.com/freefall.htm
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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    WHO would have known 20-min earlier?
    They didn't, the problem was that amidst all of the confusion etc..this story ended up being produced. SO many phone calls coming in regarding the collapsed buildings someone only needs to hear something slightly wrong and this could have happened. I wasn't saying that people had 'known 20-min earlier'

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter
    You say there is "no demolition [evidence] of charges", BUT there IS. There IS evidence of THERMATE and other substances and phenomenah that IS consistent with CD. Other than the chemical and other evidence that was discovered,don't forget that all wreckage was scooped and hauled in violation of ALL local, state, and federal CRIME SCENE laws and protocol.
    I can appreciate this doesn't help all that much for doubters, rightfully so.

    Thermate. Normally a mix - 1 part barium nitrate, 2 parts aluminum, and 3 parts iron oxide (rust). The element sulfur is present in abundance in many building materials. Drywall, for example (also known as GYPSUM board - Gypsum also being one of the major components of any portland cement) consists primarily of plaster, i.e. gypsum, i.e. hydrated calcium SULFATE. Churn lots of steel and gypsum together and cook them for three weeks at temperatures sufficient to melt both and I would not be surprised to see "sulfur-contaminated iron".

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter
    Your last sentence strikes me as exceptionally odd for a "structural engineer." EVEN IF your postulate was correct - "only needs one floor to collapse and the whole building goes" - IT WOULD NOT EXPLAIN the perfect footprint collapse at near freefall, evidencing that the support had instantly disinegrated. zg
    Not entirely sure what you're saying here? Not being rude I just don't understand the point. If it is regarding a building collapsing to one place i.e. its footprint. If that building is designed to fail safely which I'm sure high rise buildings in New York must be, then quite frankly I'm not so surprised that when the named structure fails it ends up in one place.


    All in all, I don't think in any discussion like this we could ever reach one result. Why? Because there are so many conflicting engineers, architects and experts views on so many of the same things. I haven't read a vast amount on the WTC7 or in actuality many of the theories unlike maybe Zen..so you're knowledge of this and the theories will be quite superior to mine. Problem with the whole attacks on the WTC's is that so many experts have been asked for their views and they quite simply don't have the same answers.
    Last edited by sicharlton; July 12th, 2008 at 11:50 AM.

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